The Comment That Got Its Own Blog Post

If you haven’t read my previous post, “REALITY CHECK,” that will give you more insight into how this all came about.  After reading that post, a reader posted a comment that resulted in its very own blog posting response & 177 comments! Here is how it all transpired…

February 9, 2010 – Anonymous 7 pm: “Hi Smile Moon, I do not know many desi singles in the small town I live in but I am soon moving to Boston and I had a couple of questions as I am very oblivious to the desi dating scene in big cities (your blog has been tremendously helpful in providing me some insight, thank you). Hopefully, you or the visitors on this blog can clear up some puzzling questions I have.

1. Are desi guys in their late 20’s and early 30’s serious about marriage?

2. Do desi guys expect their wife to be ‘pure’ when they get married? What about the other way around?

3. Do most desi girls have sex (with the one they want to marry) before marriage or hold off until after they’re married?

4. Are desi guys controlling and abusive?

5. Do they hold traditional views when it comes to the role the wife and the husband should play within a marriage?

I’d really appreciate any insight I can get. Thank you.”

Vijay Uncle: Hello Anonymous at 7 PM, while you are waiting for Smile moon to answer let me tell you what I have found

1. Desi guys in late 20’s and early 30’s are ‘by and large’ not too concerned about getting married. They feel there are enough choices out there so some perfect woman is going to come by. Many of them think why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

2. At one of the youth convention (200+) I spoke and at Net IP (500+) I asked the audience directly, how many of you want a virgin wife and not a single hand went up. Of course I think there were about 10% or so who might have waned to say ‘yes’ but felt too embarrassed to speak up.

3.  I think vast majority of Desi women have had sex prior to marriage.

4.  Both desi guys and gals are controlling – obsessive – and abusive. In my generation that honor mainly went to men now with equal rights of women situation is lot more complicated.

5.  Role of wife and husband varies from one group to the other. In some very orthodox family and if the grooms parents are living with them there is a lot of pressure on woman to play traditional role.
Good luck with your social life in Boston. It is a dog eat dog world out there.

Smile Moon:  oh wow, that’s what i call “the secret” phenomenon – ask the universe/will it to be true – & you shall receive. i thought to myself “universe (actually, “hai ram” – not b/c i’m religious but in a *gulp*, omg, please do not make me answer this kind of way), please let vijay uncle take this one.” & without my ever having to ask him, he did. thanks universe (& uncle) 😀

i can definitely say though that i 100% agree with uncle on everything he said. being desi in america is a very interesting phenomenon… the vast majority of us were born & raised here, experienced liking boys/girls when others did (in our TEENS – like ALL people in this universe pretty much do), things like going to prom, the undergrad experience & dating since then in a completely (if not very closely) in-line way as our non-desi counterparts. however, i cannot imagine that a 20-30-something old white girl would ever have to ask questions #2-5. like i’ve said before, this is the challenge with our desi expectations of getting what our parents got back in the day from their arranged marriages (2 “pure” partners who line up with each other in every cultural, religious & other category) co-existing with our present day desire to FALL in love & not be forced into a marriage.

more in a second…”

Well, to no one’s surprise, I had SO much more to say that the system REJECTED my next way-too-long comment!  😀  Please see below…

Ok, this is a A LOT more (i should probably make this a blog post…)  now to address some of her specific questions which, by doing so, i’m sure i will probably say too much by all desi standards… god seriously bless me & my gosh darned “krantikari” (revolutionary) spirit as my mom calls it (she’s swears i was “jhansi ki rani” in my previous life! :-P)

1) i hate to generalize (do not get me wrong, i do it all the time, but i really DO hate it), but YES, uncle is right on this one.  for desi men in their 20’s & 30’s, time is infinite (the whole “they, TOO, are ‘expiring'” concept is completely lost on most), as are their options of desi women.  like i’ve said before, as desi women near their 4th decade of life & proceed in it, their (desi male) options decrease & this works in the opposite way for desi men.  & yes… that does make you have to wonder why then are so many desi men are so single & struggling to meet someone…”

2-3)  “purity”/”innocence”/”good/bad” by any standard (in MY opinion) – whether it be for eating meat (or wearing it), drinking alcohol, smoking pot/cigarettes, cursing or intimacy (of any kind) – is a whole lot of BS & it is people – who either believe they are slightly “more pure (better)” than someone else by some standard or those who AREN’T “pure (better) at all” who live by a DOUBLE standard – are the ones making these judgments.

also, uncle is most likely right about that 10% of males but they will not admit to it.  like i’ve mentioned before i know 10+ born-&-raised-here guys who’ve gone to india to find wives. i imagine that in addition to possibly being jerked around by many desi girls here (as one person suggested was the reason guys go abroad), that one reason is also definitely this whole “purity” thing.  however, from the big cities in india to the straight up GAOS (villages), people – including the girls – are not as “pure” as you might think (side note, for all you bollywood movie watchers, let’s not forget basically every preity zinta movie – from kya kehna to salaam namaste – where she gets knocked up pre-marriage; in-india life is not as far removed from in-america life as many would like to believe).  & here’s the BIG question – what makes someone “pure” or a virgin?  a person TELLING you that they are…? hmm… now i do not think i’m much of a smartie by any means, but i’d say that “i swear…” is far from a guarantee on anything…

4)  i’ve never experienced this so cannot attest to it.  i would never date someone who exuded any of those characteristics, which i honestly believe do not all of a sudden come out once you’re in a relationship or post-marriage.  those qualities are there & i think too many women turn a blind eye to them or think they can “love those qualities away.”  i do, however, think that for the most part a good majority of both desi men & women have completely out-of-this-world expectations for what “the right person/marriage/life” should look like.  in general, as desi people, we live by & for the perceptions of others & give SO much importance to things like status & wealth, that core CHARACTER traits are so often lost in the mix.  sad, but true.

5)  i think cha-cha (1st comment from Reality Check) really addressed this one the best.  however, if you have ever heard of (oh, or even more fun, experienced!) “desi momma’s boy” phenomenon (mom thinks son is GOD.  son buys into it) & then mix that in with the present day expectations of women that guys have that include visuals of megan fox & even the recently bikini-wearing rani mukherjee, well, i think it would be an understatement to say that a vast majority of desi men are looking for what their moms provided to their fathers & families (obedient wives who cook, clean, mind the household & the bache), PLUS she should also be career-oriented, brilliant, fit, sexy, well-traveled, charming, wild in bed, etc. etc.

i know far too many AMAZING desi women who feel wildly insufficient to meet the standards of desi men.  & yes, sure, i’m sure that works in the opposite direction as well; however, i think it’s fair to say that it works disproportionately so.

anyway, thank you 7 pm for your questions.  oh, & can someone please remind me to call my mom tomorrow??  the funny thing is that she – in spite of definitely thinking of my brother as RAM BHAGVAN reincarnate – never did so in a way that confused him into actually believing he was.  go mommy & go bro. 😀

* * * * * * *

THAT was my “comment” in its entirety.  I know, “my god.”  I am sure this one will generate many comments of its own & I hope it does.  Please keep in mind though that I am not blogging to be different or racy; I am blogging b/c there is a SITUATION – not a fist pumping one, but a REAL one – going on with our desi community in regards to dating/finding “the one”/marriage… THE WHOLE BIT.

Write soon,

ORIGINAL COMMENT THREAD –  Like I said, there were 177 comments to this post (55 pages when I copied & pasted to MS Word); for those of you who said I should write a book, well, this blog post & it’s comments could be all my content and it would be titled “The South Asian Pursuit of Marriage:  God Bless Us All”). 😛  No?  Ok… Back to the posts then.  Many were from me & Vijay Uncle, but TONS were from Anonymous posters and the conversation went from answering the above questions (mostly # 2 & 3) to including topics like being a virgin (or a “born again”), organ size (please do not make me explain), a booty ban, predators vs. prey, abuse & all kinds of other stuff.  Women and men got very offensive and defensive, so if you’re posting a comment, please try to offer something that adds to the discussion other than opposite sex-bashing (which nonetheless offered us a lot of insight into the fact that the majority of singles out there have a massive amount of resentment towards the very people they are trying to partner up with!) or something that has already been said.  I will be using many of these comments for some other blog posts, so you can also just wait to comment until then.  Other than that, enjoy & if you can get through all the comments, go you!
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Anonymous said… These are my answers to these questions based on what I think –

1. Are desi guys in their late 20’s and early 30’s serious about marriage? Nope. Not at all. They think they’re gods, because their mom’s still pamper them. Even the one’s who have nothing going for them.

2. Do desi guys expect their wife to be ‘pure’ when they get married? What about the other way around? They do when they are in the mom mode, and do not when they are out with the friends. This is the whole confusion between the indian mom-like wife and the sexy hollywood like wife. The conflicts co-exists within them.

3. Do most desi girls have sex (with the one they want to marry) before marriage or hold off until after they’re married? I think desi girls in general hold off a lot longer than most others. They give it up more so because they did not find the “one” by that magic age.

4. Are desi guys controlling and abusive? YES

5. Do they hold traditional views when it comes to the role the wife and the husband should play within a marriage? YES

Anonymous 7:11 said… So with the exception of the handful of desi men and women who are happily married, my question is to the majority of single desi men in their late 20s to late 30s:
I am downright baffled by those men, who give up their desi gfs of 1-2 years, who are probably at least 80% of what smile moon defines as:

“vast majority of desi men are looking for what their moms provided to their fathers & families (obedient wives who cook, clean, mind the household & the bache), PLUS she should also be career-oriented, brilliant, fit, sexy, well-traveled, charming, wild in bed, etc. etc. ”

and marries a girl from india who he expects as the first half of that description minus the fact that she has to adapt to your culture, cannot speak english as well or understand your jokes the way your ex did, probably cannot hit the ground running with a career and ironically is more needy, demanding and less traditional than you had signed up for. This decision, keep in mind, was made in a 1hr chai session, while a desi girl here who wants something “serious” is a threat from day 1.

or the flip-side marries a non-desi girl who is the second half of that description, who probably will not be nearly as traditional as your desi gf would have been, understand your culture, your upbringing, your parents…
it’s just simple math… how is it that we are soooo picky when it comes to our own community and so compromising when we marry outside?

Anonymous 7:14 said… dear uncle/SM/anyone, what do you advise to women regarding “why buy the cow when you get milk for free?” i’m from NY and i know that in itself is probably my problem right there. ive tried to keep things from getting even close to that point with indian guys i start seriously dating and ive been told im a prude. one relationship i was in ended because i didnt sleep with the guy after 2 months and one failed to progress because i told him that although i was not a virgin, i didnt want to have sex AGAIN until i was engaged/married. he called me manipulative and a tease.

women and men both have hormones and desires because of them, but it is funny that if a girl goes home with a guy, in spite of doing everything in his power to get that girl to do so (most of the time trying to get a girl drunk), that SAME guy is judging her whereas that girl probably thinks this guy is really into her and is showing him affection because of it.

there is an insane double standard when it comes to that stuff. SM, i think you said it in another post, but when a woman hooks-up or cheats she’s a whore and when a guy does either he’s just a guy. like you all said above, desi guys who dont have a single desi value in them and live by american standards when it comes to hooking up and sex are looking for modern day sex kittens plus a “pure” innocent cooks, clean, and manages the household wife.
the REALLY funny thing is that my choice to not sleep with a guy again until marriage is because of how awful the sex was with a guy i had completely fallen for. awful for ME because my first and only experience in a committed relationship before that had been a thousand times better. i do not want sex to be a personal dealbreaker for me so i now try to prevent it from getting to that point.

desi men, 3 things to keep in mind that us girls think you are notoriously challenged at: FOREPLAY is a MUST… a woman usually needs TWENTY minutes of it so stop being so selfish in bed by going straight for the prize… SLOW DOWN this is not a race… and sorry to say this but size DOES matter. a lightbulb just went off in my head – is that why you want us to be “pure” so we wouldnt know any better” lol.

sorry, but if you did some kind of anonymous survey of 100 desi non-virgin females the above is not me saying because im bitter or a sex maniac. it is the truth.

vj uncle, it seems you know a whole lot more about both sides. what exactly should us desi girl do when it comes to sex” bc NOT giving the milk away for free and trying to be a BAV (born again virgin) is not getting me anywhere.

Smile Moon said.. Nilu, I LOVE that married people are reading! You mentioned that you have kids, & I hope this all doesn’t terrify you! 😛 Vijay Uncle has said that he plans on having frank conversations with his pre-teen grandchildren, and honestly I think it’s sooo important. I am pretty sure my parents did not think I liked boys until they told me that it was okay to 😛

Anywho… Anonymous 6:22, thank you for answering the questions as well. I really hope that our thoughts on the questions does not come across as “bitter” which a lot of people are implying (or saying directly) that I am. Our comments line up with Vijay Uncle’s & well, he’s not bitter. He KNOWS the experiences & expectations of 1000+ desi people – guys & girls included.

Anonymous 7:14, I was tempted for a second to delete your comment not because I thought you necessarily said anything “inappropriate” enough for me to do so, but because as much as I addressed the whole S-E-X thing in as roundabout a way as humanly possible, this blog really did not “go there” until… 7:14. 😛
I still do not feel comfie addressing it directly b/c although people have likened me to Carrie from “Sex & the City,” I am SO not her & I am also not WHITE. =P Honestly though I would not even know what to advise you though if I could!

I will let Vijay Uncle know that you’re looking for some insight so hopefully he can give you some. But believe me sister, there are tons of desi girls in your “milk-cow-free-eh?!” conundrum! 😀

Smile Moon said… Woops, omigoodness, Anonymous 7:11! I LOVED your comment & the question you asked at the end “how is it that we are soooo picky when it comes to our own community and so compromising when we marry outside?.” Well said and your descriptions of both scenarios were completely on point. I could not tell though whether you were a guy or a girl (no offense if that’s offensive!); it doesn’t matter, but I would be completely impressed if you had that kind of insight into the situation as a desi male. Yes people, it doesn’t take much. 😛

Anonymous said… Definitely a girl! I wish desi guys had that kind of insight.

Anonymous 9:30 said… Hi Smilemoon and VijayUncle,
I was the person who made “the comment that got its very own blog response” so thank you both for responding to that. You both did address the questions I had.
Now I just read the Anon 7:14’s comment and I really would appreciate it if any of you, especially you single guys can answer this question- Do you really eventually want to marry the girl who’ll sleep with you while dating, or will you think of her as too easy or a slut and discard her (sorry to put it so bluntly but based on SM’s past posts and the comments it seems like that’s what these guys are doing)?

And also, please address this question as I, too, am baffled by it. I am re-pasting it from Anon 7:14’s comment- “vj uncle, it seems you know a whole lot more about both sides. what exactly should us desi girl do when it comes to sex” bc NOT giving the milk away for free and trying to be a BAV (born again virgin) is not getting me anywhere.”
What to do”? Give the milk away for free and lose the relationship and get called names or do not give it away and lose the relationship and get called names? It seems like it’s a lose-lose situation.

Anonymous said… I think you see few desi guys commenting or providing feedback because they’re afraid to “give up their strategy/game away” and are also “protecting or looking out for their fellow desi brothers.”
Guys, please have respect for us and give us an insight into the situation we’re facing with this generation. You can do it anonymously. I am sure you would not want these things happening to your own sister(s). Would you be OK if some guy used and discarded/played your sister?!

Anonymous said… It doesn’t matter if you are a BAV or a plain V. A guy who is going to dump you because of that wasn’t in it for the right reasons from the beginning. I know girls that are Vs, including myself, and will remain a V till they find a guy who is willing to be with them for the right reasons. The only advice I really have is, find out sooner than later, so you do not waste time on this guy or any guy like him. What sucks is there are not many guys out there that want to put in the effort to date a V for years while he can hook up with non-Vs. Seems too long of a process, so he might as well fool around here before he imports a “V” from India.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said… Lot of interesting comments and discussion.
@Anonymous at 7:14 PM “what do you advise to women regarding “why buy the cow when you get milk for free?” I have been pondering this for quite some time. Here is the quandary. As per the rules of normal physiology both men and women have need for sexual satisfaction. So from very early on I knew that hormones is much stronger than culture!

Let us not view the sex as something female provides just for the benefit of male. I have done a survey of more than 800 Desi youth and have personally talked to that many more probing exactly this issue. While I was not interested in proving any point and publishing a paper I wanted to understand where you guys were coming from.

It is true that many women did engage in sex more to hold on to the guy than to meet her needs. And it is also true that just as you are blaming his mother for spoiling him many women have spoiled the men in the bedroom. So they have a sense of entitlement. And we have to talk to these boys about need to be cognizant of the need of woman rather than be too focused on his needs.

I think there is a hormonal phase (16-22) where you guys regardless of all the restriction placed on you are going to experiment with relationship and sex. When you graduate from college you need to switch gears. In maturity phase (22-26) you need to learn to control your hormones and realize that in long run giving in to your carnal desires with the wrong guy can be hazardous to your health. During this phase women need to learn to be more assertive. Learn to say “NO” even when your hormones want you to say “yes” That is why technology has provided you with lots of paraphernalia’s. No sex unless there is emotional connection and no emotional connection unless the relationship is going somewhere, If you do chose to engage in sex make sure you are not servicing him (too many desi women have confessed to me that they did not have sex but basically she was servicing him ☹ )

This should put enough pressure on the guy, if he does not like the rule he has an option of moving on. It may be painful in short run but at least he cannot play you along for 2-4 years.

Then comes serious phase (26 and above) here you have to really learn to say ‘no’ to any casual sex. Here you need to be looking for those who are interested in engaging in the process to evaluate each other for marriage purpose. During this time any casual relationship you carry on may end up costing you a lot.
“I have tried to keep things from getting even close to that point”
That is not what I have observed. After few free drinks by midnight, most of you are so softened that all that self-control goes out the window.

“He called me manipulative and a tease.” Guys have been saying this since they were in high school. All you need to hear is I am so horny I will say anything or do anything to get you in my bed. If a guy like this leaves you let him find his match.

Anonymous said… To Anon 7:14, I just read this interesting article about how to fall in love:
//www.thestar.com/living/article/763008–how-to-fall-in-love
I think the advice that Gray offers to women (namely to be their authentic selves) may apply in your case. If good sex is something that is important (and clearly it is to a lot of us), why wait until after engagement/marriage to find out that you’re stuck with something so unsatisfying. Clearly you have sipped from the nectar of the Gods and there is no going back. I would even bet that some of the desi guys you dated could even detect that you weren’t being your true self with them. Given that sex is something important (why should not it be?), why would you wait until it is too late to find out that the compatibility is not there.

You did raise a good point, though. Desi men are not that well-equipped (//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6161691.stm), but there are exceptions if that is important to you, and with good technique it is possible to overcome this particular shortcoming. Don’t give up on us yet! 🙂 Good luck!

canada eh! said… wow SM, i live in canada, met you and uncle at netip TO and have been following your blog since then. i think the commenter who was your inspiration for this posting just took your blog to the next level by using the words “pure and sex.” be sure to thank her. 🙂 this is not shocking though from a community that gets turned on watching hollywood movies that are practically like porn but cringes at a lip-on-lip kiss between two bollywood actors. it’s absurd and i think our whole desi culture boils down to hypocrisy… saying we want or believe in a whole lot of one thing but acting in the completely opposite way.

i honestly think we should have a DESI NORTH AMERICAN BAN ON BOOTY. im only partly being facetious. maybe if we ALL stopped getting swayed by sweet talkers and charmers, took guys trying to go home with us as JUST THAT, stopped getting drunk and doing things we regret the next morning and most of all, stopped giving in physically in an effort to hopefully connect emotionally… well maybe then something will change. now whose the revolutionary, eh? 🙂

Smile Moon said… Holy craziness & the expression that “sex changes everything” definitely rings true here! 😛 “Canada eh!,” you’re right, I do owe Ms. Inspiration-for-this-post a big THANK YOU b/c she apparently asked a lot of questions that struck a chord with many of you.

So many comments came through at once, so I cannot respond to all of them, but I just want to thank everyone for reading & posting. I am a complete dork, but I really get SO excited when it becomes a conversation/discussion like this.

One thing I do want to address though is the “BOOTY BAN” (ha!)… for the sake of not ending up on the back of a milk carton or in the headlines as “Blogger by the name of SmileMoon last seen at Taco Bell on February 10, 2010 after implementing ‘BOOTY BAN'” or at least not getting glared at by my guy friends (who I am sure are not thrilled at my blog even more now that it might in some way cause them to get “less of the booty”), all I WILL say is… take everything that Vijay Uncle said into consideration and act appropriately according to what you want for yourself.

A classic SM-real-life-phrase is “Make sure your actions line up with your intentions.” So if you want something (whether it be to lose weight, settle down, etc.), but are perpetually getting something else, reconsider YOUR actions & how they contributed (& continue to contribute) to where you are at before pointing blame outwards.

& although I do love my Taco Bell, those who know me, know that I am a huge health/fitness nut who is all about PREVENTION. Right now, us late 20/30-40 somethings, well, we’re in the middle of this & are in need of a cure. However, whether it be through this blog or your own personal introspection (& whether you are a girl going through this experience or a GUY who has a sister/cousin/niece who you might liken to a future daughter one day), it’s important that women in their teens & EARLY 20’s get an understanding of what could lie ahead for them if they start or continue to make certain choices.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said… Let me introduce you The Modern Indian Woman (Bharatiya Naree)
Let me introduce the modern Indian woman. She is most gorgeous looking, educated, most health conscious, most talented, hardest workingwoman in the history of Indian women. She is a leader, she is a follower, and she can run the corporate world or cure the illness. She can show her Bollywood moves or she can lead a corporation. She can fit in western world as well as can be totally Indian. The million dollar question remains why are there not a dozen of men standing in line to spend the rest of the life with her till the death do you part?
There is another side of her that is not too often discussed. From the early age of 16 she is caught between her need for love & sex and her head telling her to restrain. Yes, Sex changes everything including the ability of Desi woman to make a rational decision.

For the women in our times the atmosphere to yield to the carnal desire was very hostile, level of horniness was relatively low, the opportunity to do it were not as many, consequences of being caught were too severe to attempt it so vast majority of them restrained themselves – got married at decade or more early than generation Y.
Fast-forward one generation. The atmosphere to satisfy your carnal desire is not as hostile (just do not let your parents know) the level of horniness has gone through the roof, opportunities are everywhere, consequences are not that severe and women of your generation have to wait decade or more to wait before you get married.
As much as we want to stay in a state of denial at the end of the day hormones are stronger than culture. It is said that blood is thicker than the water (and I agree) semen is thicker than the blood! I call it physiology.
So our new modern Indian woman is caught between the rock and a hard place, she means well, she knows the right from the wrong, she also has fully functioning ovaries, she needs the sexual gratification badly. Easiest way out is wishful thinking that the so-called relationship will meet her long term need (more than 95% of the time she admits to me that she should have known better retrospectively) but the damage is done.
After a year or two of playing “ghar ghar” she finally gets tired or dumped – bruised or enraged she puts herself to gather only to fall prey to similar situation in a year or two. The cycle repeats. Days become months, months become years and before she wakes up a decade is gone.

The pressure from outside (family, friends) and inside (depleted stock of ovums) mounts. She does not want to use word desperate but she is definitely on the edge. Her ability to trust others has gone. Let me get to you before you get me is her state of mind.

It is much easy to blame the men (I am not implying they do not deserve the blame) it is easy to blame the pressure of career (it does play a role) but it is hard to simply face the truth. The only person whose behavior is under my control is ‘me.’

Time has come for all desi ladies (as young as 14) to grasp the consequences of their actions. Indian woman of today live in the most independent state ever but with freedom comes responsibility. Responsibility to realize the long-term consequences of everything you do. The price, of not doing so, is simply too much in some of your cases.

Desi Diva said… I am 25, female, and a Virgin. Yes. I grew up in India until I was 18, so many of these values were instilled in my gnetic code. I cannot fathom the idea of casual sex, because I dont find that satisfying because it is as much about emotional needs as physical needs.

I grew up thinking that a physical relationship is only for people who are married to each other because that makes it right. But I modified that thought for people who are in love- but again if you are in love cant you wait till you meet the right person? I would have a slightly hard time trusting my guy if he said Im in love with you and I cannot control myself. I’d be like what? Are you trying to pull a fast one? I just dont trust men so much, blame it on the men I have met, seen, talked to.

So anyways, to me if I am dating someone I might kiss him. And If I am romantically involved with him, I will probably make out with him. (Just being honest here) BUT I will not exceed my boundaries. I am not taking my clothes off and I am not having sex with him for many reasons-

1. I dont want to feel used the next morning

2. i dont want him to use me and then never call me back

3. I dont want to ruin somethign going well, because hey he might stay around longer if i didnt give it all up.  But mostly because I wouldnt enjoy it. My mind would be running at a million miles per minute because yes I would feel very vulnerable at that point.

Ok so here is my dilemma: I am a V, and for the longest time I have been looking for a guy who is a V. Haha right? Desi men are surprisingly promiscous. Some who have grown up here have stories of hook ups, one night stands etc. THAT absolutely turns me off. I cannot stand a guy who does one night stands. I cannot respect or trust a guy like that. I cant!   Then I have come to consider BAVs. These are guy who had a serious relationship or something and they dont go “booty hunting”. I will consider a BAV provided he hasnt been a man-slut.

My question therefore is: Is it too much to expect that a man be a BAV or conservative abt sex? I get told youre in America, you cant find that here. Should I let go of my expectations because apparently what I am looking for is in short supply?   I have thought that I just go to India and find a pure, non-confused desi guy who is still sweet unlike some of the guys here who are completely (hate to use this word) “whitewashed” and I feel that they have forgotten what its like to be in love and how they should treat the woman. Anywho, I digress… and I have  addressed a lot of concerns and I am sure some of you, especially guys would be flabbergasted that I think this way, but hey, not all of us think the same way.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said…

Desidiva,
At the age of 25 Stay true to your beliefs. What you are looking for may be in ‘short supply’ but it is not in ‘no supply.’ And you are only looking for one man. There is nothing wrong in letting everyone know your expectation. And avoid casual relationships.

you should be able to find a guy who is either a virgin or a born again virgin. Going to India is not a good solution. Unless you know the guy inside out they the men over there have learned how to do it discreetly.  Join my seriously looking album on facebook (I do have lot more information about the people there than posted)
I think many men would respect you for your views. They do not get flabbergasted when a woman says I am a virgin or I am looking for a virgin but they get flabbergasted when the talk does not match with a walk.

Anonymous said… Steve Harvey suggests in his book act like a lady think like a man, to wait 3 months to have sex. He states that even on a new job you have to wait 3 months to receive benefits. Why should it be any different for your prospect. He states that men value it more if u make them wait and you are protecting yourself as well. Even in the why men love bitches book the author states more you wait the better. She says do not just give the whole candy store, one jujube at the time. Makes sense to me.

Anonymous said… I agree with Vijay Uncle. Every moment that you choose to do something, you choose a certain path. If you continue to act a certain way and then expect different results, you’re just fooling yourself. The problem most of us desis born/raised here in America face is that we are not honest with OURSELVES! We want mom and dad to think we’re still “pure” but yet try to go with the flow of social standards/expectations here.
A lot of women are innately born with a desire to please others and that is what gets us in trouble in relationships. No one told us it’s ok to ask for what you want. A lot of us grew up in a household where we witness our moms doing whatever their husbands asked and reminding us that as a woman, it is your duty and responsibility to sacrifice. However, most men that have been raised here were given ultimate freedom to do as they please. Very few learned to take responsibility for their actions. The reason we have this HUGE problem in our generation is because we’re trying to find a safe healthy middle ground between 0 (old school traditional 1940s India) and 100 (American “whitewashed” desis). Because there’s no right or wrong answer, everyone just makes their own rules to the game and I do not think many guys consulted girls when they made their rules, or vice versa.

I have found that the people that win in life are the ones that are honest with themselves and others in terms of what they want. When we have integrity with ourselves and stay true to our core values and beliefs, the satisfaction from your decisions and choices is amazing. At least at the end of the day you know that you did not sacrifice who you are or what’s important to you to be with someone that may or may not marry you. Desi girls in our generation have lost an important part of self because of this constant struggle between two extremes…

Anonymous said… I vote “Yes” on the NO BOOTY COMETH campaign. 🙂

Sunny said… Here is a guy’s point of view…
I am 29 and have lived in NY and Chicago. When I was younger, I wanted a “pure” girl to marry. I had this timeline in my head that I wanted to know the girl for so many years and then settle down. My friends and I always talked about having one-night stands but none of us actually did it. It was more of a topic to talk about than to go ahead and do it. I never went out with an intention of going out and looking for a one night stand. Have I hooked up with girls? Yes! I knew them from before and I never gave them the intention that I was going to marry them and neither did they to me. On occasion(s), I did not go too far in the “hookup” because I felt the girl was too drunk and wasn’t sure if she would regret what she was doing the next morning (or a couple of hours later). My views on a lot of it changed drastically after moving to Chicago. I met single, older girls who told me they were in a committed relationship for 4-10 years and yet were never engaged or married. Girls who never met the guy’s parents in that long of a time span. I know everyone moves at their own pace but I think it’s not too hard to sense that if you’re with a guy for a certain amount of time and if things are not progression that he is probably not serious about you. He is probably with you while looking for something better.

The question of whether to sleep with a guy is a straight-forward one. Don’t sleep with the guy because he wants you to. Do it because YOU WANT TO. Don’t do it because you want to hold on to him because if that’s the reason then he is probably not the right guy. It goes back to the character issues that Smile Moon has brought up. If you have needs and do not want to go around sleeping with random guys then go out and buy a toy. Sex is not what you see on tv. You probably will not have a good time until you do it a number of times. Sex with someone for the first time will be awkward and not good. It will not be good until both of you guys know what the other wants. When I was in Chicago, I saw a group of guys who claimed to be “players”. I did not know them too well so I cannot say what they were looking for (one night stands, short term/long term relationships) but I could tell what they were “about” by observing them. So could the girls who were hanging out with them. If they chose to ignore those signs then that was their decision. They have no right to blame those guys or desi guys in general. I saw far too many situations where the girls put themselves in conditions where they knew they would not like the outcome. Don’t try to change a guy. You can show me the light. You can even tell him you’ll hold his hand and walk him thru but if he doesn’t want to hold your hand – do not wait a whole lifetime for him.

I do not really agree with the concept of waiting for a specified period of time before you give up anything. It goes back to the guy can just stay with a girl for 3 months to get it and then move on. I think you should just use your judgment about when and who to give it up to. Will you make mistakes? Yes, but learn from them and hopefully you do not keep repeating them. There is no clear cut answer to this question.

My perception of “pure” now is just someone who has been smart about decisions she has made in the past. It’s not too hard to tell when a guy is a whore and if I know a girl has slept with him then I would try to stay away from her. Am I wrong? Possibly. Shouldn’t everyone get second chances? Probably. But if a girl has slept with most other guys I know then there is probably something wrong.

Anonymous said… First off, there are some bad bad girls in indian villages. Giving it up at like 13, running away with bfs etc. The thing with the indian system is women are married off at a very young age, because of the arrange marriage system plus everything is hush hush in india. I do not understand why people make it sound like ABCD women who are modern, gorgeous, EDUCATED yada yada yada are giving it up easily like they have no brains. Did most desi women think they would be unmarried Vs at 30 when they were 22? No. But the fact is – being modern, educated and successful requires a lot of sacrifice. It requires years of education, working your ass off etc. If we were to stay home and live with mom/dad would our prince charming come take a look at us and marry us? No. We live in America, remember – he wants the modern girl + sugar mama + the housewife, it’s a requirement to be all 3. Sorry I digress, back to the point – similar to the other posting by the 25yr old, I know myself too well and I know I would not be okay with it unless I felt secure and respected, therefore married. I have plenty of friends who are in the same boat. This isn’t about the girl and whether she can stand up to a guy. It’s plain and simple, indian guys are lazy and indecisive. Most lack the confidence to wine and dine an indian girl and get to know her and marry her etc. Not all guys, but most. And its really interesting how the ones who actually do pursue a woman, want one that is completely out of their league, while the one’s who are actually in the league are just players.

Anonymous said… Poster “Sunny” – A lot of what you say is reality. You state some interesting points. All of which most of us know or should know. But what really stands out to me about your posting is it all goes back to the root problem – non-committal confused desi men-

1) ” Have I hooked up with girls? Yes! I knew them from before and I never gave them the intention that I was going to marry them and neither did they to me.”

2) “I met single, older girls who told me they were in a committed relationship for 4-10 years and yet were never engaged or married…he is probably not serious about you. He is probably with you while looking for something better.”

3)” Don’t try to change a guy.”
Basically a lot of lack of commitment is what I read from a guy’s perspective!

Sunny said… I would suggest people to stop being negative and attacking towards the opposite sex. Sure there are guys out there who have issues but same can be said about girls. I will tell you another story. I went to a “SAPA” like event in NY and I met 3 girls around the age of 26. They said it was their first time coming there. They told me they hoped NOT to meet any guys who would “fall in love with them in the instant and want to get married right away”. Another case was when my male friend stopped seeing a girl because she wasn’t ready to commit to him.
With the points, you took things out of context or did not get exactly what I was trying to say.

1) I do not see why that makes me non-committal confused desi. These girls weren’t even desi. I wasn’t dating them. It was to show you that I wasn’t pure (as sad as that may be).

2) Sure the root cause was the guy who did not commit but after a while the girl should’ve woken up. Like Vijay Uncle says, stop wasting your time on certain prospects.

3) Perhaps I phrased it wrong. Don’t try to change anyone (girls or guys). It’s hard to change someone’s character. Don’t be the one who says I will make this guy or girl settle down. For everyone who is successful, there were 10 people who failed before them.

This blog has been really informative and I hope it doesn’t turn into a bashing corner for the opposite sex.

Anonymous 3:04 said… The blog + words of wisdom from uncle should give advice to both genders not just desi women. It makes it sound like ‘boys can be boys’ and the women need to figure out how to go about things the right way.

Anonymous 3:09 said… To Desidiva, I am 29, also a V (crazy, right?) and I think exactly the same way you do. So do not worry, you’re not alone. However, I do disagree that you can go to India and find a “pure” desi guy there either… I think Indians in India do the same things that Indians here do but you just may not hear about it or find out about it until you’re already married (at which point, it’s too late).

Smile Moon said… first off, i do not think anyone – south asian or not – would deny that there is a HUGE double standard in the world at large when it comes to “carnal desires” as uncle calls them. guys naturally have them whereas girls should have restraint & from the way guys or girls generally perceive their acting upon their own desires (one is a biological need & the other, a usually emotional one) to how everyone else views them doing the act, undoubtedly a double standard exists. now that’s with american people in general… multiply that by a HUNDRED with south asians.
like uncle has said though, we’re not here to change those double standards or anything else that’s been ingrained in society essentially since the existence of human beings (if you’re Hindu & unfamiliar with Sita’s Agni Pariksha story, it’s a good one: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rama#Agni_pariksha).

however, in spite of every double standard, we CAN introspect and figure out how WE are contributing to the situation. b/c LADIES, guys did not become so emboldened all on their own, & sure, you might not that be “that kind of girl” but whether you’re a V, BAV, the anti-V or the “everything, but…”-type, it’s NOT just the hooking up element that has caused the current state of affairs.

things got messed up along the way for TONS of reasons (if i listed them all, we’d have another comment turned into a blog), but think about it… from girls passing up the “good guys” in their younger years & going for the bad boy type, so many girls being obsessed w/ check mark criteria, women tolerating emotional/physical/mental abuse simply for the sake of being in a relationship & women often making decisions emotionally versus practically, WE – FEMALES COLLECTIVELY – have helped cause this hot mess. WE are the reason standards are so low, b/c across the board, we tolerated & continue to tolerate a whole lot of bad behavior (& I am not talking about a guy who hooks/ed up; I am talking about a guy who treats you poorly)

personally, i’ve seen guys who hooked up with a different girl in undergrad practically every night, shut it all down & be completely devoted to one woman. sure, i only know what i see, but i do not think it’s fair to judge guys (or anyone) by their actions in their young 20’s, b/c people do have the ability to evolve. we ALL did things (& if nothing else, had moments) that are far from our most stellar, but as now more mature, evolved ADULTS, we have hopefully learned from our experiences & act accordingly.

being that vijay uncle has a mission, i have this blog & you either are single or know many singles, the “acting accordingly” based-on-what-we-know is the part that we can change and need to actively work on.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said… Anonymous 3.04 I do not think it is about ‘boys can be boys and women need to figure out’
This is about when you make a choice you face the consequences. Just as when one chooses to consume junk food (which makes him feel better) pays ultimate price when he has a heart attack few decades later. Desi women given the freedom and ability to sneak out made choices – and at the time it may have seemed like the right choice- but now the bills are coming due. They are facing the dichotomy of highly successful professional life and rather empty personal life (by your age my biggest joy in life was to play with my three cute children!) and no end in sight.
Blaming others wont help. Creating a gender war will have lot of heat not light. I think it is time we reflect on what he have done for past 25 years and how has it served us. Granted that your generation was thrown into a new paradigm and there was no previous role model to follow. You guys did what you thought was right and boys did what met their need.

Now it is time to take a step back and look at the entire process. Can we now understand as to how casual relationships have been detrimental? Can we agree that loss of a decade was uncalled for? Can we educate our younger generation to learn from our misconceptions?

If it was not for a dozen women willing to put out for a Desi boy it would not take him long to come to his senses.
anonymous at 3:09 let me know I do know a guy for whom V is a very important aspect of character.

Smile Moon said… THANK YOU to Sunny for being bold enough to un-anonymously speak up, and although you definitely did not need to clarify at all, I completely agree with your #1-3. 1) You’re a great guy 2) Any girl who after a year is still waiting around on a guy who “just doesn’t know yet,” SHE is the problem. Making a commitment is not something a person should need to even “decide” on; it should be something they feel & are compelled to do. 3) Inherent character is a toughie to change, but I have seen complete & genuine turn-arounds. All change comes from an inner desire to be different & see different results.

& yes, everyone, although I haven’t been able to read all the comments just yet, let’s please not turn this into a bashing. Thank you!

Anonymous said… Adding on to the V pool, count me in as one too, but i’m not going to date myself 🙂 On a serious note, uncle, what type of advice do you have for these type of girls? Just keep waiting for a guy who wants a girl like you? I am genuinely interested.

Anonymous said… “I am 25, female, and a Virgin. Yes. I grew up in India until I was 18, so many of these values were instilled in my genetic code.” – I am 28, female, and a Virgin. I was born here. It has nothing to do with being born/raised in India for these values to be in instilled in one’s genetic code. Let’s get away from that stereotype.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said… Anonymous 4;36 pm and 4;27 PM and all the others V out there:
There is good news there are guys out there for whom this is a highly desirable attributes. I think it is also important that husband and wife see this aspect eye to eye. Of course it is the kind of thing we do not advertise. But I do ask lot more questions to people than their profile would indicate.

On another note the media would have you believe that the primary bond between man and a woman is that of sex. There are many prospect out there who do not put that much emphasis on that particular aspect for them companionship takes priority over sex. So it may help if I knew how you felt in that department to suggest you the right kind a guy.

Check out my seriously looking album on face book. The participants in my process are specifically instructed not to get emotionally or physically connected until they reach a point where both parties overtly agree to moving on to the next stage.

If you are a V or a BAV that is not something to be ashamed of. But in current dog eat dog world it may seem like it. Since our open discussion I have received the contact of the guys for whom someone who is a V or BAV is a extremely valuable. And that is the kind of guy you are looking for. So please contact me at vijayvip@aol.com

Anonymous 6:53 said… uncle, do these guys who are looking for a V/BAV fall under the same category? and does this mean that these guys are okay then with not having sex before marriage? last question… what exactly qualifies someone as a BAV? isn’t that subjective? i feel like you are either a V or you are not. how does an in between qualification really matter? i am a V, but i seriously have no judgment on anyone who isnt. id just rather be with someone who didnt live by a double standard so that’s why i’m asking.
at the end of the day, all each of has is our word meaning… me telling a guy i’m a V and him believing it or a guy telling me he’s a V or only slept with so and so # of girl/girlfriends.
sorry one more question uncle…. for these guys who are looking for such purity are they willing to get a full STD & blood testing report? i would happily provide the same, but im sorry, this is one thing i wouldnt take a risk on.
im sure ive opened up another can of worms, but smilemoon, uncle and everyone else posting, thank you because this conversation has been very eye-opening.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said… Great questions Anonymous 6:53 PM
Most of the guys who are looking for V understand the reality of the day so they go for either V or BAV.   Yes these are the guys who would understand that respecting a woman is to wait. They have no need to test drive the Toyota!
Yes, you are right BAV is absolutely subjective. Here is my definition. The woman did have sex once upon a time. Then she came to realize how it was not for her. And since then she has not engaged in sex with anyone. Even when she is with someone she loves she chooses to maintain the boundary. To me the she has been a BAV for at least a year. And he/she does not plan to have sex with anyone unless they have a firm commitment at least.
I think any guy or girl should be more than willing to submit to full testing for STD. As a matter of fact is someone is trying to avoid the test I would be really concerned about it.

Anonymous said… One question that Anon 6:53 asked that I do not think was answered is “uncle, do these guys who are looking for a V/BAV fall under the same category?”  I am curious to know this answer as well. Are these guys Vs or BAVs? Or is there a double standard here? Thanks!

Vijay Mehta M.D. said… “uncle, do these guys who are looking for a V/BAV fall under the same category?” Answer is YES!

Anonymous 11:06 said… “Both desi guys and gals are controlling – obsessive – and abusive. In my generation that honor mainly went to men now with equal rights of women situation is lot more complicated.” Uncle – do not you admit that indian guys who marry outside of indian, tend to be more submissive? I know some uncles/guys, from India, who married white women. Not to generalize, but these women totally have the upper hand, almost to a point of humiliation. I wonder if these men would give an indian woman that much control. Just a thought, not bashing on men. I just find it interesting.

Anonymous said… that’s a great point Anon 11:06. It’s almost like they believe they are inferior…though I do know of one example where an Indian guy married a white woman and he has really controlled her and their 3 children unfortunately.

Anonymous said… In response to February 10 at 7:14PM:  I know this is kind of riske, but here goes… “Size matters”” Well size matters to guys too. Women’s “equipment” becomes much more ravaged with multiple sexual encounters (and child birth) than men’s. So it seems that men have just as much to be worried about when it comes to the “size” of certain organs on women.  I think these things will not matter though when both parties are committed to each other, and are open about their desires and fancies and are willing to learn how to please each other. Such things do not happen on one-night stands. So I guess for one-night-stands, size does matter – for BOTH parties!

Anonymous 1:52 said… To the last poster… I am a 32 year old guy married to my wife of 3 years. I had multiple partners before marriage and she had two (or so she said!) Being that I am her now only partner and sorry for the overshare, but we have sex A LOT, and I can say that one half of your concern is completely bogus. Thats like saying that my now wife is “loose” because WE have sex all the time. She feels no different now than she did when we first started having sex. So, to answer your concern, YES to a slight degree of difference post-birth and NO to the difference between someone who had ONE partner or multiple. The only time it will possibly feel any tighter or different between women is if you are with a true virgin and within a few times of having sex, she will feel just the same as everyone else.
See the below sites each siting something to the above…
//www.medhelp.org/posts/Sexuality–Relationships/Vaginal-stretching-after-sex/show/467019
//www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=496827
//www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/vaginasize.htm
One more thing to address the original poster who went there in taking this convo in this direction, I have to say that I WAS incredibly selfish when it came to everything sex-related. I was about ME and getting it DONE. My now-wife coached and coaxed me into catching a clue. GUYS, IT IS ALL ABOUT FOREPLAY and you should know that if you’ve ever read GQ, Mens Health or if you just thought about it. I can almost guarantee that the guys who do not spend time in foreplay have a whole lot of women “faking it” because by the time you are DONE, she hasn’t even gotten STARTED.
Thanks to my wife communicating her needs to me, she now reciprocates in kind and also initiates sex which she NEVER used to do because it actually satisfies her versus in the beginning when I basically just pounced her and went straight for the prize which was me getting off.
To both posters though satisfying sex in a committed relationship has very little to do with size but intimacy, communication and finding out the other partners needs on EVERY LEVEL. Basically whether its sex or emotional needs if we all stopped and asked what the other person wanted or needed, relationships would be completely different.

Being that I am one and know how I used to be, I can say that we Indian men are all about US in that regard. Also I dated a white girl seriously for a few years before my wife and what posters 7:11 and 11:06 said is completely on point.
All interesting conversation and yes, even us “Marrieds” are reading.

Anonymous 2:00 said… I do not think desi guys are nicer to white women. I know of a girl whose mother is white and father indian, and the white mother was submissive, learned how to cook indian food, puris and all and lived in an extended family. This mixed girl was molested repeatedly by the fob uncle who was indian and was living with them.

Anonymous said… Poster 1:52 PM – “Being that I am one and know how I used to be, I can say that we Indian men are all about US in that regard. Also I dated a white girl seriously for a few years before my wife and what posters 7:11 and 11:06 said is completely on point. ”
so glad to hear an indian man admit to this! Please educate all your peers on this matter. i cannot tell you how many men out there are in this situation.

Anonymous 4:01 said… I wonder if 1:52PM is really even a man? 😉 Of course the size of a woman’s organ is important – if it weren’t there would not be surgeries and excercises out there to tighten it up. And yes, it does get stretched out over time due to child birth, sexual activity, and aging. Not all Indian men are selfish in bed (and I guess I can mainly speak for myself and the guys I have spoken with). Most guys I know are VERY concerned about pleasing their woman in bed. Some even employ a 2:1 rule (and 3 or 4 to 1 for special occasions), if you know what I mean… In any relationship though, the sexual activity naturally waxes and wanes over time – and it’s the fault of both parties. And if we want to talk about stereotypes, the stereotype of the Indian woman in bed is not exactly stellar. Remember, foreplay is to women as nice lingerie is to men – you cannot demand one and begrudge the other. It’s called give and take. And that’s what this is really all about – understanding each other and fulfilling each other’s desires. After marriage, of course.

Smile Moon said… ok, so as you may have noticed i’ve been M.I.A. from commenting (that’s half a me-being-really-busy-thing & half an “uhh… not sure what to say here” thing). i’m actually going to continue to be M.I.A. from commenting (& possibly the blog) for a bit b/c i have a lot of stuff going on with my job search, will be traveling & some other things that are in the mix.
i know the conversation will continue irrespective of me asking that we stop at the last comment, but i will still at least ask for us to please stop CONTINUING it in this particular direction. i promise that i am not playing the “bholi bhaali” (innocent) conservative-type; i thought this was a-okay at first, but i now think things are getting to be a bit much. most of all, i honestly think a back & forth discussion on the above is not only futile but also GROSS. yes, that might me being immature, but this is just my attempt to have a constructive conversation that moves away from placing blame or worst (& blech), a discussion on the size of anyone’s “organs”.
ugh, actually double blech. my last thought on that is one i referred to in a previous blog… CHRISTOPHER REEVES & his wife. if you do not know about their story or how they managed to be intimate in spite of his being paralyzed from the neck down, read about it. yes, physical intimacy IS an important element, but its certainly not the end all be all… the above conversation makes it sound like all our generation cares about is how hot it is between the sheets/some standard of “purity” & not about a spiritual or emotional connection.
i’m seriously disturbed b/c it seems like people have given this ONE aspect too much importance in the much bigger picture of the WHOLE RELATIONSHIP. anywho, carry on if you must…

Anonymous 7:04 said… this is a lot of material, although a very interesting blog. At the end of the day, enough of the blame game! Desi men and women have equally created unrealistic expectations of each other. After living in Manhattan for 7 years, I also saw that the playing field was leveled. Desi men and women were both equally players, both were fooling around a lot, etc. There were also some (typically outside of nyc) desi women and men who were not like that (yes, there are a lot of desi guys who have dated a lot, but not been around the block). At the end of the day, people who share similar values and ideals will likely work together (the desi female player and male player; the more conservative ones fit, etc). No need to judge – people are different, and the right matches will work.

Interested Observer said… I like the discussion (all of it). I appreciate that Indian men here are defending themselves with excellent points and this is not simply a forum for women to bemoan the Indian male. We all need to take responsibility for our own choices. We need to keep open, unbitter, unjaded minds about the opposite sex.

Anonymous said… a reality check – this whole “pure” thing is nonsense. a lot of desi guys and girls – are not all that different in their experience, sexually. Let’s be honest here – except for a few, most white guys get way more action than the average desi guy. except for some exceptions, most desi guys and girls are pretty much in the same boat in this department. in fact, its always easier to get action if you are a woman at the end of the day.

Anonymous said… I agree that it is nonsense but Vijay Uncle still has several guys looking for virgins. The V/BAV thing was getting annoying and I think its okay if desi ADULTS use that word people. Uncle, we have spoken at a previous NetIP conference, and I think you are great but everyone is not going to follow your definition of a “BAV” and Im sorry but its so subjective that its almost ridiculous. The fact that people are screening out on these things is even more absurd, and I feel like a whole lot of these people with their expectations dating back to the days of arranged marriage should get deported back to India.  The blog is definitely interesting, but will any of us really ever CHANGE?

Vijay Mehta M.D.  said… Wow! Seems like the discussion has caught on fire.
As I have said many a times before we all have our own personal truth and I am not here to change yours. I am simply expressing what I have gained from my life experiences including talking to so many of you. I am going to address few interesting points.

“Don’t you admit that Indian guys who marry outside of Indian, tend to be more submissive? ” In many cases it seems that way. The reason is simple. You treat others how to treat you. So if you are very submissive than your husband is likely to increase his control a notch higher. When a Desi guy marries a white woman if white woman lets him know what will be tolerated and what will not he is likely to be guided to some extent by that. So it all depends on the dynamics between two people. White woman’s threshold of leaving a husband is much lower than a desi woman who is worried about what would the family and society think of her if she walks out. The more we stigmatize the divorce woman more pressure is put on her to become submissive and yield to man’s controlling behavior.
I have also seen Desi guy bossing his white wife. In that case the girl fell in love with exotic culture so much that she tried to fit the mold of Desi woman.

“Size matters” All I can say is that there are 10,000 things that matter for a successful husband and wife relationship that may stretch 50 years or so. In big scheme of things if our married life depended heavily on it – you are in trouble. Brain is the most powerful sex organ in the human body. (Sorry, I don’t have any link as a reference!)
“Married” are reading. – Thank you all married out there who are following and contributing to the discussion.

Marriage is not a Taj Mahal that you build once and it will serve you for centuries. It is a dynamic process. It requires two people to come to gather as a team and meet the challenge at each phase. That is why, among all the curb and core criteria you guys are looking for, the most important criteria ought to be – I am convinced that he/ she is a willing spirit. And we as a team will be able to meet all the unexpected challenges that life may bring.
“At the end of the day enough of the blame game” I agree. The purpose of the blog is for everyone to share his or her experiences, views or biases. Ultimate goal is to develop an understanding of wide variety of perspective. The only person whose behavior is under your control is you. So develop a strategy that serves you well by changing yourself.
“Uncle, we have spoken at a previous NetIP conference, and I think you are great but everyone is not going to follow your definition of a “BAV” I do not want any one to follow anything because I said so. As I have stated hundred of times before I am not expert. I am simply telling you what I see and hear. How much to accept or reject if entirely up to you.
“That it is nonsense but Vijay Uncle still has several guys looking for virgins.” – what may seem like a non-sense or ridiculous to you may be vitally important to someone else. At the end of the day each one of you have to make a choice that suits you the most.
Thank you everyone for your participation.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said… My light bulb moment. Last night it was pretty late and I was tired when I posted my last response at 12:50 AM. I got much needed sleep. When I woke up I suddenly realized that I found a wonderful ‘infra red question’

If you are evaluating a prospect that seems like making progress and getting close to the destination, have him or her read the discussion specially about the ‘size matters.’

Do not talk, just listen. If you hear that your prospect is really concerned about this issue – hear your Vijay Uncle whispering in your ear – “Run beta run.” You might have found a dealbreaker! Unless of course you had serious concern on the same issue. In that case you should hear – ‘Tuzme Rab Dikhata Hain Yaara Main Kya Karoon?’ 🙂
Let us call it a psycho test!

Anonymous said… I agree with Vijay Uncle. Any woman who has a size criteria for men has probably seen or worse, felt, way too many of them with their clothes off for my comfort.

Anonymous said… I personally agree with SM that organs and size do not matter. All of this is going to come to an end. Anyhow, there is an inconsistency here:

How is a girl looking for a guy with big goods different from a man looking for a virgin(tight goods). There is essentially no difference. I see a lot of misogyny rampant on this discussion board. Especially from men.

Anonymous said… yes, lots of misogyny on here from some men…in many cases from preconceived notions and a poor attitude, rather than from actually trying to understand what is trying to be expressed here. Please try to understand the material from a female perspective before jumping to defend yourself.

Anonymous 9:49 said… I think both men and women could benefit from trying to understand each other better. I do not think it will happen here on this thread. The well has been poisoned by such things as links to a racist and demonstrably false BBC article, and the accusations of sexism (or rather, misogyny).

Vijay Mehta M.D. said…We live in an era of freedom of speech. And anonymous blogging allows the freedom of stupid speech! However it should not stop us from exchanging the views. All you have to do is simply ignore those who are trying to contaminate the discussion and pay attention to those who are trying to contribute to it.

Some people do have a strong urge to express their views but do not have anything substantial to say. Well they go on gender war or stupid questions or link etc.

The well is not poisoned. It is for us to separate the good from not so good information and keep moving on.  Peace out!

Anonymous 4:39 said… A couple of casual blog observations from a desi guy married to a non-desi:

1. Way too much generalizing and stereotyping of Desis of both genders…we are a very diverse population just like the cultures that we originate from and the one we live in now. Respect the diversity, and take pleasure in knowing that there is someone out there who will accept you as you.

2. Size matters to (some) guys too…we all know guys who will pass on a beautiful woman who wears an A-cup. Why should it be different for women? That is one reason women should test drive the car, because marriage is not a 36 month lease deal, and you better enjoy the ride!

3. Generally speaking, Desi women & men need to lower their standards! It is OK marry a spouse who does not have Bollywood good looks, a 6 figure income, or does not pass everyone of your mother’s checklist criteria (language, caste, profession, etc.). Too many of our Desi sisters are missing out on having families b/c they spend forever waiting for Mr. Perfect when they could have already been happy with Mr. Sweet & Caring. Fortunately for the guys, the clock does not tick as fast, and the Motherland has a wealth of talent that will jump at the chance to resettle abroad with a complete stranger.

SmileMoon – great work on the blog! You and Vijay Uncle have definitely touched a nerve, and I only hope that the singles reading are able to learn from the fascinating dialogue. Knowledge is Power!

Anonymous said… Is it racist to make scientifically based observations on condom size in certain parts of globe? Especially since condom fit is one of the key factors in determining proper use and prevention of STDs. In South Africa, the condoms are generally too small; in India, they tend to be too big. This is not racism, but well-documented fact.

Similarly, is it sexist/misogynist for one to exhort desi women, who perhaps have certain collective tendencies, to try and do better?

I think in this era of political correctness, there is a tendency to quickly dismiss ideas that make us uncomfortable. We should never be afraid of confronting the truth and making the best of it.

Anonymous said… What appears to be going on here in this debate over size is none other a microcosm of the larger problem that South Asian singles face in their quest to settle down and find a suitable partner!
Size is something that one cannot change about themselves and central to one’s gender identity, so it is a convenient thing to use to ‘bash’ the other sex, when one is themselves feeling bitter or insecure.
Also, in this day and age, we are just aware of so much more! But ignorance is sometimes bliss, as we continue our seemingly futile search for Mr. or Ms. Perfect — right down to matching genital parts.
Don’t get me wrong, even our forefathers in the Kama Sutra acknowledged the importance of a good fit, but we seem to place way too much emphasis on this and similar surface attributes — so much so that we risk missing out on the larger joys of life. Just a thought!

Anonymous 12:00 said… The BBC article uses anecdotal evidence, it doesn’t use a population measurement. Anecdotal evidence is the least reliable form of evidence, and not surprisingly, often backs up preconceived biases. That is because of RECALL bias associated with anecdotal and even retrospective studies (If you believe Indian men have shorter penises, then you will recall more incidents that support that notion). There are probably just as many condoms that break for being too small or misused in India, but that doesn’t make for an exciting article. What is needed in India is education on how to use a condom appropriately. The below is an example of the misguided teaching in India which leads to condom misuse:

Additionally, the article misleading is because it fails to take into account that the average height of the rural Indian male is 5’3″ and the average height of the rural Indian female is 4’12”. This is due to a number of factors, inluding lack of meat in the diet and general undernourishment. The 5’3″ average means that a significant number of men are well below that height. If they were to have the penile length of the average American male, at height 5’10”, it would no doubt be difficult for their women. Such statistics cannot be applied to Indian men in this country, whose average height is 5’7″-5’8″. Nevertheless, the fact that MOST Indian men use the same condoms without difficulty as their gargantuan American counterparts suggests that the Indian penile length is actually relatively long compared to that of Americans.  And if it’s anecdotal evidence you want, take this – a female friend of mine who has slept with white guys and Indian guys has told me that the men with the longest (and by far the widest) penises have been Indian.

Anonymous said… To Feb 17 at 4:39PM.  I am a guy, and I would never pass on a beautiful woman who wears an A cup.

Smile Moon said… hi again… so as you all know although i have NO desire to delete comments, i have before & am considering going there again as much as i do not want to. the fact that people of both sexes are getting so defensive & writing posts like 12:00 is mind-boggling to me. & for the sake of not horrifying all my readers or making people ULTI (vomit) like i almost did after the last post…. i have to ask AGAIN if we can PLEEEEASE redirect this conversation or in desi terms, just put a FULL STOP to this part of it? honestly, i know i’m an adult & all, but everyone has discussed “length, size, organs” & far too much more for my taste AD NAUSEUM.

the above “discussion” (all of it as that specifically pertains to SIZE) is an effort in futility & a demonstration of absurdity as far as i’m concerned. whether it be anecdotal, sited in an article, or anything, this conversation is POINTLESS.

what it sounds like is a lot of only-motivated-by-sex individuals who are trying to “defend their bits & pieces” & put some kind of ridiculous blame that is likely untrue on both ends. as vijay uncle said, the biggest sexual organ is YOUR BRAIN & are not us desi-folk supposed to at LEAST be blessed in the BRAIN department?? if so, let’s please start using it people!

if anyone has anything RELEVANT to say in regards to the initial post, please comment. otherwise, i will be deleting anything that continues in this part of the “size” discussion.

Cha Cha said… It is interesting that nearly all posts focused on the sexual aspect of the blog (questions 2 and 3) and hardly commented on the #4 which inquires into if desi men are controlling and abusive. People who commented on the 4th question agreed that desi men are indeed controlling and abusive within a sentence and went into detail about the sexual aspect of a relationship. Most comments ignored the 4th question altogether.
Although sex is an important part of a relationship, ultimately it is the interaction (talking, communicating) between couples that will determine happiness. Over the lifetime of a relationship couples do more verbal communicating than they do physical or sexual.

Apparently ignorance is bliss. Lets ignore the abuse within our society (both physical and emotional) for yet another generation and focus on having really great sex. Collectively we can aim to reach 2 billion in population 🙁

Anonymous said… Aunty’s Words –
More than half of the sons in the indian circle have married non-indian girls. Most of these boys, are doctors, lawyers, executives and married white women who are their age, or older, non-professionals such as secretaries etc. Most of them are not even that beautiful and many are very disrespectful of our customs, and treat elders with no respect. A lot of these women were aggressive and went after these boys.

When these boys are introduced to indian girls, who had the “wow” package, they did not even call them or meet them for reasons such as she’s long distance. If an indian girl goes after an indian boy, he thinks there’s something wrong with her. We have to be much more strict with these boys. They are out of our control, and a lot of them are not even that happily married with a home very different from what they were brought up with.

Anonymous 8:23 said… The comment above is harsh, but somewhat true. I am not sure i’d say half the community but half the high-profile community. The girls here should be more open-minded and raised less traditional so that they too can date outside of indian and live comfortable married lives.

Anonymous said… Aunty is right. When we show interest, we are desperate. “They are out of our control” Yes. Desi guys are definitely behaving badly, other wise there would not be such a LARGE number of single desi women who are gorgeous, well educated, refined, multifaceted, wonderful and fabulous.

Anonymous said… Long live Aunty.

Anonymous 9:29 said… Right on…I am an Indian female in my 20s. I have had many instances where I was simply trying to be proactive about my life and attended NETIP events or JAINA and just went up to men and women alike to simply introduce myself since I did not know anyone. The men seemed put off that I approached them first and all I said was “hello, I am ____, how are you?” Keep in mind, I wasn’t being desperate or awkward, just social. I would say I am a reasonably attractive female, though not the most attractive…but definitely do turn a few heads. I did not see any reason why they could not just say hello back without their eyes glazing over me to check out what other women were walking by. I felt like a piece of meat in these conventions and feel quite upset after them, as if I was a failure. It just feels so harsh and judgmental for my sensitive personality to keep going to these things. It feels like I have to be elusive and let opportunities float by in order to maintain my mystery…I’d love to hear a desi guy’s opinion here…or those of others that have attended these singles conventions.

Anonymous 10:51 said… I am going to go a bit off topic from what has been happening in this comment column so far: to address something that most Indian people shy away from speaking about. I’m not sure why, when I’ve brought it up to desi friends they either brush it off like it’s no big deal (not realizing the standing effects it has on people) OR begin to treat me like I’m the plague. But it was brought up, here’s my story.
question number 4: abusive desi guys. To begin with: I am now in a relationship with an Indian man that ISN’T abusive – I know MANY women currently with desi guys who are NOT abusive – I want to state this from the start. Not all desi guys are abusive, despite this I feel comfortable saying a ridiculously large proportion is. My experiences for anyone reading this that is a female in the large city Indian dating scene: seriously…Indian men are notoriously abusive…it’s something I’m not sure how to describe. I can name 9-10 (11 if you include me in this first example) girls I PERSONALLY know off the top of my head that were physically and/or mentally abused by their desi boyfriends, a lot of times right out in the open. These were young men with obvious anger and drinking issues, not sure where they learned it from, but they exhibited some sick behavior right from the age of 18 to approx 23…and I have seen these same guys turn away from the physical abuse as they can no longer get away with it when they’re older and turn to emotional abuse for the long haul. I’ve seen the effect that all this abuse has had on these girls’ self-esteem, personal relationships with their friends as well as the result it has had on their attempts to have relationships since. Most have become abusive towards their current boyfriends setting off a sick cycle.

I myself was mentally and emotionally abused my entire senior year of HS and my undergrad by my first serious boyfriend, a desi guy, and it’s had LONG term effects on my self-esteem AND dating life since. I dated him from when I was 17 until I was 22, he was 3 years older than me, and it wasn’t pretty then and it isn’t always pretty now. Out of the other two desi guys I dated afterwards one of them was also extremely emotionally manipulative, another relationship that lasted much too long. They will guilt you, lie to you about yourself and your friends/family, put you down in sugarcoated ways you never knew possible, hold you to ridiculous hypocritical standards, get wasted and treat you in ways most educated men in general NEVER would. These types of desi men will NEVER change, do not even try.

Before I met my current boyfriend I had another amazingly BAD experience with a desi guy that I truly TRUSTED as my friend, but we won’t get into posting any of THAT on the internet. But I’m sure you get what I’m saying. This AFTER being emotionally abused for SO long from the age of 17 until I was 25 by different desi men has been ridiculously hard for me to deal with in life in general – not just the world of dating.

Again, I’m not saying all desi guys are like that, many (but not all) desi guys who have good control on their drinking/who hang out with a lot of non-desis/a good mix of non-desis don’t seem to be like this. I’m now with one who is none of the above but suffers from a mild form of the syndrome mentioned in your number 5. The ever famous “desi momma’s boy” phenomenon coupled with an expectation of what I should look like added to his own and his family’s expectations of me to be all of the above and an ivy league graduate and here you have the majority of OTHER desi guys. Now my man is a real catch, he’s no Calvin Klein model in the body department but he’s ridiculously good looking, the only son of a successful family, and wildly successful himself without any hookups from daddy. Which means I am expected to also be great looking, with a Calvin Klein model body (somehow with boobs), knowledgable in the cooking dept, comfortable going for walks in heels, and making 6-figures easily. I pretty much fit into NONE of the above categories, but am still somehow loved by him. Don’t get me wrong, he still sometimes likes to push his little expectations on me…which can be exhausting, but I am loving being in a relationship for once in my life, and not just for a few days here and there. I made it through all the sick shit I had gone through ALIVE. I am really happy; back on my soapbox and to my original point: abuse is something seldom spoke about in the Indian community, but it exists and it is NOT something to be ashamed of when you go through it. You are NOT inadequate, he is wrong those things are not true about you, and you ARE worth it. This is a strong message for you young 20 something girls just moving into huge cities after graduating or even you young desi girls just getting into college reading this: I honestly truly wish to God you don’t go through what a lot of us went through with desi men, but if you do, you are NOT alone. Get out of an abusive relationship FAST, immediately, he will NOT change. He’s wrong, LOTS of men will want you, he’s NOT the only one who will ever care about you. It’s not ok/normal to get wasted and treat you like that. You WILL find someone else. Just know that, and keep on believing that, keep getting out there and you will NOT end up alone.
Well there’s my experience…even if it only helps one girl realize she wasn’t alone when she went through it, or one girl STOP going through it and get out NOW – it was worth putting out there for the world to see. I know how it is when they’re your first love and so much else…but there will be others. Don’t be blind to it because it’s

Anonymous said… Thank you for anonymous for sharing your abuse story. I have experienced it firsthand and I can totally relate to the experiences you’ve been through, many facets of your story resonates with me. Yes SmileMoon, desi guys of our generation are very abusive and that abuse can most definitely ruin a woman’s views on future relationships. It took me 4 years of therapy to get myself back after being in an abusive relationship for only 1.5 years. Girls need to be aware of this and get out ASAP!!

Anonymous said… VJ Uncle and all, abuse of every kind is a major problem in our community, and we tend to stay silent for the fear that it is something not to be talked about or discussed openly. Please bring more awareness to this issue. These websites list some signs of a potential abuser-
//www.eurowrc.org/02.faq/19.abc_batter.htm
//www.lfcc.on.ca/HCT_SWASM_4.html

Anonymous 11:32 said… To Anonymous 9:29pm, I feel the same way. The netip and other networking events do feel kind of “harsh/judgmental” for “my sensitive personality” too. I feel the same way you do. Its like we are f’n forced to be all elusive. Nice, sweet, interested are simply some things men do not like. They want an elusive woman. The woman who is ‘just not that into’ them, but by any chance if you are somehow interested in them, now it is not a ‘challenge’ anymore. Its an easy victory. I have noticed soo many times, men I ignore and am not interested in, pursue me till the end, and ones you do show interest in do not. Weird as it is ladies, us sweet/nice women who are not born bitches, we must be elusive and un interested in the men we find interesting. Anyways, I would like to recommend a book. The Rules by Ellen Fein and Sherrie Shneider. It has very specific examples. So I am experimenting them on 2 men. One of them I acted like I would-never called, and the other one as recommended by the All the rules. He is pursuing me like crazy. Just try it, what do you have to lose.

Men: please do not ignore the sweet/interested ones and go after the elusive bitches. So, my neighbor married a royal elusive bitch (very emotionally detached) yes she was a “challenge”. Anyways, 3 kids later she divorced the nice guy for her high school sweet heart. The bitch will rip your little heart out from where it is and throw it in the garbage. So men, next time pay attention to the information you are getting from women, your friends, other sources and pay attention to the interested sweet/nice/honest woman who will be a loving, sweet and a nurturing partner. Who knows what kind of mysteries the mysterious woman is hiding. I am pretty sure no one is going to heed my advice so ladies just stick to being elusive and uninterested and he will come after you. I think it is evolutionary and hard wired in their system to chase after us like we are prey. I am determined to figure out this predator/prey stuff and so far I am doing good.

Anonymous 11:55 said… To the above commentator. There’s no need to mask who you are. If you are a nice girl, then stay a nice girl. If you’re a mean girl than even if you wanted to be nice, your true colors will show. Your goal in life should not be to see if you can figure out the right combination to attract men. Live your life, pursue your goals, take on hobbies, stay social, smile. You may find someone who likes you for who you are.
I like aunty’s comment above, and sadly all this bashing on men is kind of true. There are not enough guys for girls in this system. So my recommendation is live your life, and hope for the best.

Smile Moon said… ok, so much for going M.I.A… after this comment, i have to “unsubscribe” myself from all comments at least for the next week or two b/c every time i get an “Anonymous has commented” e-mail on my crack-berry, I get completely distracted from whatever I was doing – in this instance, it was going to be SLEEP :-P)
first off, thank you (& thank goodness!) to recent posters who helped steer the topic in a different direction & to 2 very important/interesting topics. interestingly enough, one of my upcoming blog topics is about that mystery/allure/elusiveness that has now been a repeated theme from everyone from the guys, girls & even a supposed auntie. i’m the anti-mystery/allure (i think the most alluring thing about me is my right eyebrow that i have no voluntary control over! :-P) & as for being elusive, i think the guilt-riddled-side of me (even after all my ’10 resolutions & evolutions) would STILL feel b!tchy actually being elusive (elusive = disinterested/aloof = rude, no?). more on that in the next blog though!

& DEFINITELY more on the abuse issue to come in a future blog as well. 10:50 to 11 pm, i will for sure be pulling from your comments, b/c honestly I have personally (& thankfully) never experienced or even heard first-hand stories about that kind of abuse from friends or friends of friends. that is NOT me saying it’s not true, but that i am SO incredibly shocked that our-generations-guys act that way. i know some of you will think “really SM? are you that naive?” & the answer is YES, i probably am!

i’ve seen the emotional manipulation but again i haven’t directly experienced it in a relationship & i do not feel like my girlfriends have (unless they did not talk about it which i imagine a lot of people do not so THANK YOU for sharing your story). i can also tell you honestly (& i feel bad saying this), but in those situations that i saw afar, sure, i judged the guy negatively, but i more negatively judged the girl b/c she “put up” with it.

oprah has told me a million times, so i SHOULD know that it’s far more complicated than that & that all abuse is – mental, physical, emotional – i can just thankfully say that i have thus far not had to be a victim to that. sadly, i do not think it really hit me until your story that the person being abused is often manipulated & threatened into “putting up with” that abuse. they do not just stay b/c they are afraid of being alone or that they might not “find better,” b/c often they are made to believe that the abuser is the best they’ll ever get, or that “he does it out of love” & all that awfulness.
we will definitely discuss this more & honestly, most of my post will probably be your comment, so thank you again for sharing your story & if only we all lived with the “if this could change one person’s life attitude” this whole world would be a completely different place.

true story 🙂 k, g’nite everyone, have a good weekend & stay tuned for a new blog post on monday.
p.s. – naturally, there are probably more girls reading this (or at least posting comments) than guys are, but i really do encourage the guys to participate in the converation. there are 2 sides of every story, exceptions to every “rule,” & all kinds of different experiences, perspectives, likes/dislikes, etc. out there. it sounds like all the girls – including this one – would love to hear about yours. 🙂

Vijay Mehta M.D.
Hi anonymous women who shared about abuse,
I agree with you. We need to add this to the profile of Modern Bharatiya Naree!
Our ladies eagerly wait the defining moment in their life – high school graduation. This is supposed to be the time when they get out of their jail (home). The wonderful home (may be with lot more amenities and space than the dorm room) is now something she is so excited to leave. Why? For past 4-5 years she feels like a captive in her own home. The well-meaning parents are simply too strict to allow her high hormones to run wild. Every step of the way she is trying to balance her inner drive to be like every other teen (have a boy friend – hang out – hook up and so on) versus what parents would allow. In so many cases she is counting days – hours or minutes to the departure time.
Finally that time comes. She can almost hear, “Free at last, Free at last thank you Matajee I am Free at last” in the air as she drives out of her own parking lot with a big smile.

Now she is ready to fulfill her dream without the constant guarding of those two or sometimes more (brother) guards. She is thrilled. Little does she realize that she is stepping out of so called jail into a jungle.  Playing field in the college is lot different than the one in high school. With so few desi girls out there to venture openly during high school time there was an artificial scarcity of girls compared to boys. This changes radically in college campus.
The first meeting of Indian Student’s Association is checking out the new merchandise time. For the guys new stock has arrived! Poor girl she is too ill equipped to deal with this. All the relationships she had so far were underground. She has not quite understood the men and her needs and wants.

She is emotional. She thinks finding the love from the right person will make her happy. For the guys, they are more focused on the physical need rather than being that emotional support. After initial playing hard to get our woman falls one after the other. Some take a little longer than the others. But vast majority of them need so-called relationship to feel complete.

Now the tragedy starts. Guys suddenly realize that woman is so emotionally dependent on her and there are simply too many out there so he changes. You teach people how to treat you. Our outstanding woman starts compromising – step-by-step this escalates. She is tolerating emotional abuse – it may move on to sexual abuse and in many cases goes on to physical abuse. Bad boys suddenly seem sexy. Being a trophy girl friend seems better than being single. She cries. She is sleepless in campus. Our woman is frustrated. She feels if she can dump the boy friend number one she can find better. On an average it takes about 2 years and 3-4 serious attempts to break up. Finally she moves on – bruised, jaded, scarred but still addicted to love. This is almost like an addiction – you want to get rid of it but you cannot live without it.

You would think that now she would have learned a lesson. No, she is simply going to replace one abuser for the other. She is emotional slave. Her beauty actually works against her – because too many losers are willing to stalk her until she gives in. The good ones are likely to stay away. None of these is openly discussed. They all act out as if they are the virtuous women like their parents would like to think. But from inside too much damage is already happening.
She thinks all men are dogs but she does not realize that she has become a dog magnet. Good ones are simply staying away from her. She blames the men but she does not realize that major part of blame lies with her. The only person whose behavior is under your control is YOU. Being a single is not quite a happy option. At after parties she is treated like a community property and groping & grabbing is allowed once the alcohol level reaches the threshold.
And the saddest part is – the ‘war within’ is fought by her alone. The people who are closest to her (parents) are out of the loop. Imagine Arjuna in Mahabharat without Krishna. No one to guide her, if she is willing to listen. Occasional counsel from her friends does not help they are also in the same boat.

I recognized this nearly 15 years ago. I started chatting to random youth on AOL. It was a shocking revelation. They could openly share their dirty little secret with me due to the cover of anonymity. All those countless hours on AOL made me the cool uncle you see today.

To day when I am talking to a woman in early thirties who can not find a man, I wonder how much price she is paying for her years 18 -22?

Anonymous said… Uncle I completely agree with your posting, but you fail to talk about the flip side. There are many sidha sadha (translation “good”) girls who are absolutely beautiful that cannot seem to find someone either. You say “Her beauty actually works against her – because too many losers are willing to stalk her until she gives in. The good ones are likely to stay away.” That’s also an issue. The good guys are staying away from the good girls, then how do they get together? Not many are. Hence, there are two types of girls, the one you mentioned in your story and the one who is being careful – both can still be single in their 30s.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said… Yes anonymous thanks for bringing up the plight of the subset of those women let us call it Desi at core. Here is her story…
She went through the college years focused and avoided the whole relationship drama. Many of these women had amazing achievements to show for. She might have been labeled hard to get. She probably thought my family will find the right match for me. As the time goes by the ability of family to find the match goes down rapidly. You guys have made us irrelevant in the process of finding your match. (that is why I had to be very creative to put myself back in equation.)

Now, when she enters the search at late twenties or later she is lost. She feels quite uncomfortable with causal encounters. Sometime she cannot tell the difference and engages herself thinking this was a serious encounter only to find out that it was not. She is relatively inexperienced in the games that people play. She is expecting common decency. The frustration mounts, desperation sets in.

There is no logical explanation for why such virtuous women with low baggage and high accomplishment do not have a long line of suitors. Even the parents admit to me that had they known of this coming they would have encouraged their daughter much earlier to find the mate.

Any discussion of male female dynamics turn into a blame game like this one is likely to. However, what both sides do not realize is that you are a victim of rapidly changing paradigm and lack of out strategy to deal with it.

Anonymous said… I am of the latter category Uncle describes, almost 30…I just want to throw my hands up…there’s nothing else I can do. the odds are so against women like us…I feel like I have tried so hard and saved myself for something that never materialized. The frustration is enough to drive one mad and into depression. All I can do is live my life for myself now. If something happens, it’s an unexpected thing I will welcome.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said… Hi almost 30, if I have not already talked to you here is the message. Throwing up the hands is not an option. Suppose you were unemployed for last five years in spite of your best efforts would you give up?
What you need to do is redefine your expectations – define the core need and be creative about getting there. Improve the product to the extent you can and keep working on new marketing strategy. What many of you fail to recognize is that a time comes when the product is losing the value. It is time to move rapidly and choose the best among all the imperfect choices.
I know, for many of you the old style of arranged marriage would be a blessing.
Good luck. Stay strong.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said…

Female posted this response on my facebook note
“Uncle, I think you are forgetting to denote the true cause to the problem facing all of these ladies now and from the past 20 years. —their parents. Indian parents want the best for their children, from education to clothes; they are willing to do what they see as the best. As a parent and a daughter, I can say this from experience and observation. Indian children are doted upon as if they were fragile crystal. Our parents practically bubble wrap us from birth to make sure nothing “happens” to us. What they and I (at times) forget is that if we initially have minor falls—physical or emotional—we learn not to repeat them. Dating in high school for Indian parents is so taboo, and as you have noted, teenagers in high school are hormonally driven. They do what they need to, have relationships underground. This is where the Indian culture kills us every time. What if it was “okay” to have a boyfriend when you are 16? What if I could openly discuss my relationship with my mother and my father, and have their guidance. I would be able to tap into how 25+ years of relationship works successfully. What if Indian parents actually acted as a married couple, instead of like brother and sister in front of their children? Instead of making huge relationship decisions, alone and with no guidance, she makes them and deals with the mistakes on her own, too—in the dark, without any support or advice. Growing up, Indian kids are not allowed to have relationships, nor do we see the real husband/wife relationship from our parents, because that is inappropriate. This is how we send teens off to the real world jungle. Why do Desi parents do that? If we never acknowledge what is really going on as Indian parents, and accept it and try to help our children, we are doing them a disservice by not giving them a “relationship toolbox” to go out in to the world.”

Here is my response
“Wow H, I could not have said any better. The root cause of many of our problems does originate in Desi mentality. And now we are paying a very heavy price for it.
Now, I am able to go to desi convention and tell the 1000+ parents in the audience that not only it is ok for your 16 year old to date but if you think she is not it is for you to bring up the subject.
Our kids need to learn the ins and outs of relationship with us on board not underground! And I am very happy to report that most of the parents do get it. And no one has thrown any objects at me, yet!
This is about getting a wake up call to our entire community.

Anonymous 5:35 pm said…Also, do 16 Sol somvar. I heard of this one Doc girl who met and married a gorgeous doc guy at 32 or 31.5 years of age. She credited this to the 16 Somvar. You fast every Monday and pray. Just google what you need to do. Put in sol somvar and you will see the rituals and prayers you can do. This is not for everyone, but whoever it resonates with I just wanted to put it out there.

Smile Moon said… Anonymous 5:35, please do not take this as me poking fun at doing something like this b/c I really believe to each their own & I know fasting has meaning to many (I am definitely a person who believes in going without but not for the sake of “getting something”), but I was wondering if this is something that GIRLS do to get GUYS, or that guys could/should do to get girls as well?
The thing is that I LOVE being Indian, Hindu & everything in between, but I have always had difficulty understanding why in our culture & religion it has been so emphasized that a woman needs to sacrifice, go without out & in some instances literally “worship” her husband.

For example, I always grew up loving the concept of Karva Chauth; I would watch my mom go without food & water all day for the health & long life of my dad. But as I grew older, I questioned why my dad wasn’t fasting for my mom’s health & long life (I heart you Daddy, but we’ve discussed this :-P). I LOVE those couples where on Karva Chauth, the husband ALSO fasts with his wife. I believe that the sentiment should be mutual & I would appreciate all stuff like this more if it wasn’t so one-sided.

Anonymous said… Sol Somvar is about holding intentions and involving a higher power for help when you need it. Anyone can do it, men or women for clarity, career issues, love issues, etc. People work out, dress better to receive a mate, this is simply one another avenue for those who believe in the higher power and have faith that he will somehow intervene and help. I do not want to discuss this furthur, but like I said, I just wanted to put it out there for believers. And men, you can fast as well if you want a good woman.

Anonymous 7:17 said… I think it is time for Aunty to hear from the Desi guy’s POV. In some cases, Desi guys may choose to marry a non-Desi girl to avoid the princess (HAP) type mentality that you raised your daughter(s) with. Sadly, many of the Aunties here have very superficial values and pass these along to their daughters. This can include an obsession with jewelry and clothes, focus on class/profession, and of course gossiping about how much money so-and-so has. I recall having some very distasteful conversations with Aunties at parties where there sole focus was to judge my “resume” to determine whether I was a suitable candidate for their daughter/niece/etc. Tactless would be a kind description for a good number of them.

So, is it really wrong for a Desi guy to be turned off by these things and seek someone who is more “real” (if perhaps, less attractive)? Obviously, not all Desi girls fit the above description, but let’s all be honest and say we know plenty who do. And even those who may have been raised better will likely be tainted by the values of their HAP friends.
Aunty – I hope I judged you wrong. But if I did not, please think about the example you set for your daughters, as it may be contributing to the problem.

Anonymous said… One more Desi guy’s comment:  Emotional and physical abuse is prevalant in virtually EVERY ethnic group. Frankly, it is the way many of our mothers and grandmothers were raised (because it was accepted in their time), so it should not be shocking that their sons have been conditioned to think it is OK.
It is NOT OK! Desi women should be taught to recognize the signs of abuse and get out IMMEDIATELY! Moreover, do not feel like the guy should be “protected” after you leave, as he will likely continue the pattern if he is not called out. Why let him move on to abuse someone else? Make an impact by dumping his ass and letting all your friends know why!

And, if you are concerned that your sweet, wonderful bf may become abusive later, spend some time with his parents and see how they interact. If his Daddy is an a**hole to Mommy, the red flags cannot be missed. Fortunately, there are plenty of educated Desi guys out there who have moved into the 21st century. Move on.

Anonymous said… 7:17 Anon, do not hate on Aunty.  What is wrong with being a Princess? I know I am one, and deserve to be treated like one. Sure, if you want a door mat, then you find a doormat. I am sure me and my other desi sisters will not miss you. Our parents raised us with great care and we expect the same from our partners.

Anonymous said… Anonymous 7:17 – I think what Aunty meant to say is indian guys and girls should be open to meeting one another when parents/family/friends/whomever set them up. It’s ideal to find someone who shares a similar background as you, because marriage is a lifetime commitment and as you get older you get more in touch with your roots. Our parents made a lot of sacrifices when they came to this country and it’s difficult for them when they feel their child isn’t making the best decision. There are some non-desi women who are sweethearts, and who do show respect and love for our culture, but there are also some that do not. I think she’s speaking for the one’s that do not. It’s difficult, because we do not always know how much marriage can change someone – for better or for worst so some sweethearts can turn bitter or vice versa. This can easily happen when a desi marries a desi too, i just think it’s easier to blame the child when it’s a non-desi.

Anonymous 9:51 said… All this talk of “good” (sidha sadha) and “bad” girls is actually what drives many nice, accomplished desi guys far far away from their female desi counterparts. Most other women simply do not have this type of baggage and/or hangups when it comes to sexuality, they just see it as a normal part of a relationship. With all due respect to Smile Moon (who is at least providing a forum for this type of discussion), even your own “eewww, gross!” type of comments smacks of the whole “good Indian girls” must be (or at least act like they are) above such earthly matters. If I, as an attractive, educated, personable Indian man has the choice between two women — both equally attractive, educated, personable — and one happens to be Indian but has a lot of baggage about sex/relationships and the other is not Indian but I can discuss ANYTHING under the sun with her and she makes a great effort to connect with my family/culture… well guess who I am going to choose?!? It’s a no brainer! Sure, at age 22, I might have gone for the Indian girl because I thought it would be easier with my parents. But at age 32, I have been in enough relationships to understand how rare it is to find a great connection with someone and I have fought enough battles with my parents that one more isn’t going to damage our relationship. Plus by now, they just want me to meet some kind smart girl with a nice family of any background and start producing grandkids. This explains why an awful lot of gorgeous, accomplished, nice Indian girls that the aunties love have zero game at age 30. Do yourselves a huge favor and learn to be “normal”. Even Indian girls in India are more progressive than a lot of desi girls here.

Anonymous 9:55 said… Indian guys have TOTALLY different expectations for an indian woman. If a non-indian woman makes him dinner one day, or visits his mom, she’s like the sweetest thing ever and if an indian woman doesn’t make him dinner one day or says she cannot visit his mom on a particular day, then all hell will break lose. The ironic part of all this is, the indian woman is probably earning the same amount as him and slaving around to keep up with his expectations, where as the non-indian woman is being recognized for being “real”.

Anonymous 10:02 said… Yes, go marry the non-Indian girl who is non stop kama sutra and will divorce you when you are all bald and have 5 kids to go be with her high school sweetheart.  Why do you assume that Indian women have sex/relationship baggage. Its just as much as women from any other culture. Anyways, good luck to you.

Anonymous said… @ 7:17…  Couldn’t agree with you more. My family was financially fairly successful and held in very high regard by the local desi community when I was quite young but due to some circumstances beyond control, we met with some financial misfortunes when I was in high school. It was as clear as day how my parents’ standing changed in the eyes of many aunties who were extremely petty and tactless. We are all girls but if I had any brothers, I would tell them to avoid the daughters (who have sadly turned out to be only slightly more polished veils of their mothers’ beliefs) of these particular aunties like the plague!!

One of these girls, who is 31, hasn’t managed to hold down a job (despite her grad school education) for more than six months at a time. Her parents pay her rent, her car payment — any money she earns is her “pocket money” for going out, clothes, etc. The funny thing is her parents (and she) expects their financial contribution to end when she meets the right nice Indian boy to take over. It’s truly sad. Either some poor sap is going to get saddled with this burden or she will end up in abusive relationship with no means to leave.

Anonymous said… There is a study out you can check it out if you want. Parents who have divorced, also have a high likelihood of children who divorce. I believe divorce rate is 60% in American community. You can go ahead and increase your chances of being divorced if you go American. If the parents have stayed together then, there is high likelihood that children will also stay together with their partners. The research says so.

Anonymous said… Anonymous 9:51 – You are one walking contradiction. How do you define “baggage about sex/relationships” – you say the indian girl who doesn’t talk as freely about it has more baggage? obviously the chick who has no “hangups when it comes to sexuality” is comfortable with her sexuality for a reason. She’s probably been around a lot more do not you think? Be careful about the “makes a great effort to connect with my family/culture” part – why give her kudos for something that she probably should not even be recognized for, because if she were indian you would not have taken notice.

Anonymous said… 9:51 here.
9:55 – while that might be true in some cases, I can assure you it is not in mine. I have met plenty of desi girls that assumed that being brown was enough. They had no familarity with the languages, arts, customs etc of India nor were they particularly respectful to parents (theirs or mine) – in fact, they acted like their parents were still supposed to send them home with a fridge full of meals as if they were still in college. The vast majority of non-Indians (male or female) that want to be with someone Indian that I have seen, have at least made some effort to learn about religious traditions, customs, food, language, etc. I have dated people of different backgrounds (Chinese, Swiss) and I have made the same effort to learn about their heritage. So no double standard here.
10:02 – no one is asking for nonstop kama sutra (remember, I am 32, not 22, lol). What I am asking for is a situation in which I can express my desires without being made to feel like I am a freak for wanting to sleep with someone I have been dating exclusively for a year. I am sure your bitterness is a turn-on for some lucky desi guy out there though.

Anonymous said… Very real eh?  www.acodp.com

Anonymous 10:58 said… “This explains why an awful lot of gorgeous, accomplished, nice Indian girls that the aunties love have zero game at age 30. Do yourselves a huge favor and learn to be “normal”. Even Indian girls in India are more progressive than a lot of desi girls here.”

hmmm that’s an interesting comment. It sort of throws a curve ball at the why buy the cow when you get the milk for free campaign. Maybe we should re-state it to why buy the indian cow, when you get milk for free elsewhere.
I wonder if 9:51 would judge an indian girl who has no hang-ups the same way he judges the non-indian girl. My guess would be no. He’d probably think the indian girl ‘acted like she was a good girl’ and now no longer is while the non-indian girl has a connection with him and can ‘discuss anything under the sun’

Anonymous said… And despite whoever says whatever, we are still on with the proposed Booty Ban. lol

Anonymous said… 9:51 here again

10:58- “I wonder if 9:51 would judge an indian girl who has no hang-ups the same way he judges the non-indian girl.” No need to guess, I will tell you.

When I was 27, I did seriously date an Indian girl that had no “hang ups” about sex. She was beautiful, smart, cultured, kind, and most importantly, confident. It was easy to be completely myself with her because she was comfortable with who she was — both outside of the bedroom as well as in it. I was her first Indian boyfriend and she grew up in a part of the U.S. with very few Indians, so perhaps she wasn’t limited by the assumption that Indian people would judge her, I do not know. I would have happily married her, but she broke up with me when she got accepted to a top MBA program on the other side of the country. I was willing to do the long-distance thing (I was in grad school at the time so I could not move with her) but she wasn’t.

For some reason people seem to have read my earlier comment to mean I am looking for someone that is willing to put out at the drop of a hat or is “nonstop kama sutra” as 10:02 put it. I am not looking for either. Nor is physical chemistry by any means the most important thing to me. However I am not willing to marry someone that does not have a healthy attitude about sex. This means she enjoys it as one form of connection for a couple in a committed relationship. Too many Indian girls I have met seem like it is some sort of dreaded favor they will have to oblige their husbands with on occasion to procreate.

Anonymous said… I have heard at least one Aunty in my family bemoan the fate of our community, complaining that so many of the most qualified and eligible bachelors are getting married to ‘outsiders’. My problem with this complaint is that often this criticism has to do not just with not marrying outside the larger South Asian community, but merely marrying outside one’s particular ethnic group or caste. At what point does it cease to be about South Asian / North Indian / Guju / etc. and just be about the quality of the person.

I have also heard some these same aunties come around when these couples have kids and they see a strong, loving relationship with the inter-racial couple. The aunties now conclude that it was good they married so-and-so because they’re not sure that this person could have found a Desi girl that nice.

I am sure there are all kinds of different variants of the above story, but there does seem to be an underlying observation here — namely that the supply of highly educated, successful Desi men seems to be far less than the demand created by successful Desi women. This I think is due to a number of factors: desi women tend to go further educationally, do not develop ‘game’ or are raised not to put themselves out there, and finally the Eligible Bachelor Paradox (EGP).

EGP states basically that weak bidders in the marriage market move aggressively first so as to secure a mate, leaving strong bidders (beautiful successful Desi women) often unable to secure a commensurate partner. This basically hinges on the controversial notion that women are actually choosing men, and not the other way around. What do you think?

For more on EGP, check out this article on slate:
//www.slate.com/id/2188684/?GT1=38001

Smile Moon said… It’s absurdly late, & I have honestly just skimmed most of the comments, but I wanted to post since 9:51 addressed something directly to me: “With all due respect to SmileMoon (who is at least providing a forum for this type of discussion), even your own “eewww, gross!” type of comments smacks of the whole “good Indian girls” must be (or at least act like they are) above such earthly matters.

I see that you’re experiencing some misinterpreting/reading of your own so perhaps you’ll be able to relate, but what I wrote was “i promise that i am not playing the “bholi bhaali” conservative-type; i thought this was a-okay at first, but i now think things are getting to be a bit much. most of all, i honestly think a back & forth discussion on the above is not only futile but also GROSS. yes, that might me being immature, but this is just my attempt to have a constructive conversation that moves away from placing blame or worst (& blech), a discussion on the size of anyone’s “organs”.”
Sure, I used the word “GROSS” but I would hardly say that any of the above was me (mind you, the ONLY person other than Vijay Uncle posting non-anonymously) being above or “smacking” of anything. Did the conversation get to be a bit much for me as it went on & ON about “penile length” & vaginal dimensions? YES, in my opinion it did.
That wasn’t said for you or anyone to perceive me as anything in regards to the spectrum of the sexually liberated or not, but since this is MY BLOG to kindly request that we get back to a discussion that actually IS one – like this one. carry on everyone & I will write more tomorrow.

p.s. – to 11:07 pm, whether I was an advocate for it or not (& I am pretty sure I wasn’t b/c I was worried about mysteriously disappearing at the hands of desi males), but after being out this weekend & speaking to some girls, I can assure you that the “Booty Ban” is spreading.

& 12:59, the EGP thing is very interesting (sorry, only got to read that part of your post), & I think it’s a major conundrum that desi girls are in. We know of many girls – the wonderful to not-so-wonderful kind – who have gone after guys & end up snagging them. Then there are those of us who feel like the guy should always be the aggressor & it just works best for both parties that way in the long-term (in fact, that’s what 99% of guys who’ve commented in this blog say – “let him do the work/make the effort.” I have often been advised by friends to make the first move or contact guys who seemed interested, & personally, it just feels wrong – like we’ll both get the short end of the relationship stick.

I know Vijay Uncle (& many) would advise otherwise, but this is just how I have seen it play out in most relationships.
Ok, now it’s officially waaaay past my bedtime. G’nite & sweet dreams (of less desi dating drama) my fellow bloggers 🙂

Cha Cha said… To Anonymous 9:51- I’m shocked to see all this backlash regarding your comment. I for one really liked what you had to say. I am a 20 something year old desi woman who did not grow up in the Indian community so maybe that’s why your comments don’t sound harsh to me??

I have a very healthy attitude towards sex and don’t have any preconceived notions instilled in me by various aunties. That doesn’t mean that I’m not respectful of myself and my culture. If you are still single maybe you should call me 😛

Anonymous said… haha the funniest thing about indian people is, they think it’s cool to act like they do not hangout with indians or know much about indian stuff, when they actually do. it’s like they want to marry an indian preferably, and then ditch anything indian once they somehow find someone who is indian, and say things like “i never had that many indian friends”, or “i was never part of the indian circle growing up”.

Anonymous said… The EGP makes perfect sense to me. Let’s imagine the case of a relatively good looking surgeon/financier/lawyer who has completed his training and is making good money and is ready to settle down. There will be plenty of women who are interested. But the more attractive and succesful the woman, the harder she will make it for him to end up with her. Probably because she is also shopping around a bit and “playing the field.” She will be less likely to promptly return a phone call, less likely to be available when the man wants to spend time, and less likely to let herself fall in love quickly. On the otherhand, the other women will be more available, more aggressive about spending time with him, more loving, and just generally better to be around. When the man wants to settle down, who do YOU think he will choose? The unavailable, extremely attractive, but stand-off-ish girl (who “wants to be pursued”), or the available, attractive girl who has already fallen in love with him? Well, let me tell you, it’s a no-brainer.

And in real life, I see it all the time – good looking, succesful doctors married to (who on the surface appear to me to be) so-so women. I was baffled by this phenomenon until I spoke to enough of the men and realized that they ended up with the woman because she aggressively pursued him, or perhaps she was there for him when the chips were down. Oh, and the men are happy (or at least they appear to be). Ladies, while some of you are being wallflowers, just remember there are other ladies who are more aggressive and are “bagging” men left and right.

Anonymous 11:23 said… Yeah the EGP is exactly what is going on in the desi community. However, I notice another dynamic thrown into the mix here. Indian Men and Women in general tend to be more stand-offish by nature. They also are more critical and quick to judge on another, without taking it one day at a time. That’s why the available, low-bidders as the article states, tend to snatch up the “good catches” in a very subtle round-about way. They are sort of “there” for them, and the guy gets attached/used to them over a course of time. It’s not so much that he thought she was ideal himself, but more due to convenience.

Smilemoon – as much as I agree with you on your statement “infact, that’s what 99% of guys who’ve commented in this blog say – “let him do the work/make the effort.” I have often been advised by friends to make the first move or contact guys who seemed interested, & personally, it just feels wrong – like we’ll both get the short end of the relationship stick.” I think if you take that route, you’ll probably have to settle for someone you’re not THAT into, because like I stated above, the guys that you may be more into are kicking it back and ending up with low-bidders, they are not pursuing.

Anonymous said… even when i try to take more of an intiative as an attractive girl who has quite a bit going for her, i cannot compare to these aggressive chicks. initiating a call/text here and there, and smiling and being open doesn’t cut it. some of these girls are ultra aggressive, and i dont think i could ever be that girl even if i tried.

Anonymous 12:37 said… About women being the aggressor… I really do not know. I am a 30-something desi woman and in a year-long relationship with a guy that I pursued (for the first time in my life). He claims that he thought it was cool I asked him out, a mark of my confidence and independence. He is very affectionate, and I have no doubt about his commitment to me. In fact, he is more eager to get engaged than me today. But having relationships in the past where the guy pursued me, I will say there is just something lacking here. He is a great guy in many many respects, but I think women are happier when they feel “wooed” and men are happier when they feel like they have finally won the girl over. Just my two cents.

My Mama Sez… said… My mother’s advice: It is always better to marry a man is that is more in love with you than a man you are more in love with.

Anonymous said… What is the “Booty Ban”?

Anonymous 12:46 said… Funny thing is, my momma told me the same thing: It is always better to marry a woman who is more in love with you than one you are with her.  Perhaps the best marriage results when both people think they got the “better deal.”

Anonymous said… Booty Ban, if you read higher up, is the rejection of hookups and physical intimacy (sex) until you are engaged/married.

Anonymous said… to 12:37PM – Marry this guy. Don’t be foolish. You are 30something, your options are dwindling and this guy loves you. You did the right thing to ask him out, now follow through with it. It is normal to have second thoughts, but do not shoot yourself in the foot.

My Mama Sez… said… 12:46, That’s an interesting point, but I am not sure it works the other way around. Women need to feel adored/cherished and men need to feel like they accomplished something, so I think my mama might be right on this. That said, are you single? 😉

Anonymous said… 11:23am Again. Based on Mamz Sez and 12:46am comments. My theory has been proven. Indians in general are stand-offish, therefore both the girls and the guys wait to be pursued, and get snatched up by the aggressor. The men tend to be more open-minded, than the women too. That we’ll blame on our parent’s upbringing.

Anonymous said… @12:52… thank you for your advice. I do not feel my (or his) options are dwindling at all. I get asked out a fair amount when I attend social events without my boyfriend and I have had male friends suggest they would be interested in dating me if things did not work out with my boyfriend. My bigger concern is being in the right relationship in the time frame in which I want to start a family. My time is far more limited than the pool of quality single men.

Anonymous 1:13 said… to 12:37. I am sure you are a attractive, intelligent, caring person, quite the catch. But when I say your options are dwindling, I meant the number of quality, single men who are, or will be ready to marry you in the proper time frame for you to start your family, which I presume will be two to three years max. And the competition will be fierce. Are you really interested in playing the single-desi party scene again? Many of the men who ask for your phone number at “social events” may never call, or will not be interested in getting married, or will want someone “younger” when they find out your age and timeframe. The grass always looks greener on the other side. But we need to be realistic and appreciate what we have.

Anonymous said… 1:13… I could not agree with you more. I have a very close circle of single Indian girlfriends and I am constantly hearing stories of guys they meet that are lacking in basic social graces. More frequently, their complaint is while the guy was a nice person there was a total lack of a connection. I know it is rare to find someone that you truly like spending time with. But I somehow can not shake the feeling that while my boyfriend loves me, he is not in love with me. I have been in enough relationships to know the difference. He does whatever I (very rarely) ask for, but not much more. I am a lovely, sweet, fun girl that he met in the timeframe in which HE was ready to start a family. I just have to decide if that is going to be enough for me over time or will I wake up one day and wonder what might have been?
-12:37

Anonymous said… to 12:37, You should marry him, that is, provided that there are no other major details that you haven’t revealed (like cheating, mind games, ex drama, etc.)

Anonymous 1:35 said… to 12:37, To say that he loves you but is not “in love” with you is ridiculous. You do not know the difference, you think you do. It seems like you might be the kind of girl who thrives on drama.  Actions are more important than words, or even “feelings.” Some men stick by their women to their dying day, and yet never speak much about love or make them feel all giddy inside. They are loyal to a fault, without fawning or going overboard. I can guarantee you that if he continues to behave the way that he has to date, you will never regret him.

Anonymous said… To 12:37 – I know what you mean, and I wish it was the other way around for you, but you cannot turn back time. As long as there is attraction and mutual respect, it should work out for the best. I am sure you are a great girl, who’s got a lot going for you, but us girls need to be more realistic as we age. I recommend you read this article: //www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/single-marry

Anonymous said…
@1:27, no big-deal breakers like that.
@1:35, actually, I really hate drama. The fact that we have very few arguments is a huge huge plus.
My chief concerns are:
– he spends little time with my family (he will if I ask but it’s clearly a chore). my family has a hard time getting to know him.
– he is an obsessive neat freak so nags me about little things such that i feel stressed about cleaning up before he comes over (he is pretty fair about dividing up chores/errands, however)
– he doesn’t go out of his way to be romantic, i.e. we go dutch on all our dates, never sends flowers, but he is very affectionate
One more concern although this is minor and obviously not something that can be helped — he is in his early forties (I am nine years younger).
-12:37

Anonymous 1:59 said… I sometimes feel like the extremely good looking girls expecially the one’s who’ve got a career going to get hit on less because they are very intimidating. They have to initiate or show interest a bit more in the beginning to get the ball rolling. Once the guy gains the confidence that he has a chance, then he goes after them. Just my two cents.

Anonymous said… @1:59…  I think that is in general true. For the good-looking desi guy that is used to having women throwing themselves at them, it’s better to play it a bit cool, but for the average desi guy, it’s good to show a more approachable/friendly side that tells him that he isn’t going to get shot down if he asks for your number, a date, whatever. Nobody (especially your typical risk-averse desi boy) likes being rejected so the key is to be open without being desperate.
-12:37

Anonymous 2:13 said… Question for the group…
Many of us have jokingly made a pact at some point with a friend of the opposite sex along the lines of “if neither of us is married by age ___, we’ll just marry each other.”
At what point does that start to become a viable option? Is there a point when you just throw your hands up at the whole dating scene, and take the plunge with the friend?
Let’s assume the friends have great communication, respect, trust, and the main thing lacking is attraction/chemistry and common hobbies/interests.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said…
Anonymous 2:13 PM
If the pact was made jokingly you may want to reconsider whether in fact that was a sensible and sincere pact. Visit with him/her again. Find out if the feeling runs same today as it did back then.
Then both of you agree on a time line 6 months to a year. Go out and make your best serious effort (find out one more time that it is a dog eat dog world out there) come back and work on your relationship.
So many of you are looking for that ‘wow’ that generally does not exist. Success of a marriage depends much more on what you put in it than how much you work on finding the perfect one (as long as no real deal breakers).

Chemistry is not born with you it develops by going through the ups and downs of marriage as a team.

Anonymous 2:42 said… Uncle…”Dog eat dog world”? Please say more why you feel that is the case.I think many of us are busy with our careers, friends, etc and thought the relationship part of our life would fall into place serenditipitously. Then when that did not happen, we tried to be more pro-active (i.e. actually going on aunty set-ups, online dating etc) to meet someone suitable. I do not feel the majority of guys I met were bad people but just more lacking in common goals, interests, etc. I am looking at marriage as a conversation that will continue over a lifetime and if after a 30 min coffee date, we have run out of things to say, then no need to pursue further. I am happy to introduce that guy to a friend and let her see if she might have more connection. I do not need to be “wowed” per se, but I do need to feel like you are at least someone I would choose as a friend if you are to be a potential life partner.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said… By “Dog eat dog world” I mean the playing field for Desi marriage is very hostile (more for girls but for boys too and more for the one who is serious about it than the one who is not that serious).
Once you are seriously looking you realize that there is no sure way for you to know the so called prospect you are trying to connect is serious or not. If prospect is also very serious – what exactly process is he/she looking for? Do you both know what the expected process is going to be? How long time frame each of you feel comfortable in evaluation process? While you are totally invested in your prospect does he or she feel the same way?
As you try to play this game with no rules (how would you like to play foot ball not knowing where direction your goal line is?) no referee no time limit?

With all these confusion you end up burning a lot of time. As time passes by more pressure is generated on one who is more serious. If he/she tries to push the process faster he/she risks the chance of losing him/her.
So many of you have come to a point where you are resigned to the luck. Que Sara Sara.
To me this is what I call “Dog eat dog world.”
Yes he/she needs to be someone who will be your good friend at the end of the day it is a long long friendship.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said…
Anonymous 2:47 PM
Here is the counter point to the article
//www.slate.com/id/2243179/
Save $20 for the book, listen to cool uncle, get real and you will be happy!
Being an equal opportunity Uncle I like to remind you that both ovum and sperm come with an expiry date. Do not hold out too long! 
Life is like stock options if you wait long enough it is worth nothing!
A female poster said:  “ But spending your life miserable with the wrong man is not the answer either…”
I replied – You are absolutely right, if there were only two options 1. spend your life and be miserable with a wrong man and 2. Stay happy single for the rest of your life. I would be the very first one to advocate the later.
As a matter of fact I think among those who have not found anyone by age 35 for woman and 38 for men I think 10 -15% of you will spend the major part of your remaining life as a Single or complicated. And in many cases they are doing someone a favor by not spoiling someone else’s life.
However, for many of you there is a third option. Instead of looking for your 10 accept a strong 8 or 9 and put your best effort to make it work. Simply because of the fact that all biological cells have expiry date and a perfect 10 at age 45 may not be as good a bargain as 8 at age 32!!!

Success of a marriage if far more dependent on what you invest in it than the best find.
Poster:  I do not think people are rejecting a person because they are not a 10…I think people are rejecting other people because they feel bad about themselves and cannot get in a relationship…in the desi community, it is a known fact that the singles events are geared for desi’s to take out their frustration on one another and trade insults and come back for more (because no one else in the world wants them or can tolerate them)…you have to look at the people involved in this community..and then speak….

Me:  I think you are correct about the problem your generation faces in getting married has a lot to do within. Good news is that part is fixable.

First of all I have probably spent much more time talking to men and women in your generation about this issue than anyone else I know. It has given me a deeper understanding of the problem and the issues behind it. I am also aware of the toxic influence from desi community and sometime family exert on the process.
That is why I have made this my top priority. I am optimist, though. I am working on changing the desi hook up events and create an environment where men and women can see each other as a total package.

The other important mission is to make you realize that marriage is not bed of roses. It is merging of two important lives. It will require constant energy or synergy. But at the end of the day for more than 80% of you marriage is desirable and worth the hassle.

Anonymous 3:17 said… I am a guy. I never realized until reading this blog and Vijay Uncle’s posts how much of an upper hand / advantage I have. Thank you Uncle, and ladies, for opening my eyes to the fact that men have the advantage. I always thought it was the other way around. I will adjust my behaviour accordingly.

Anonymous 3:30 said… 3:17 – if you hadn’t already realized that, you are a moron. And that certainly isn’t going to help you in the dating market one bit. Women’s eggs might be expiring but their brains are not.

Anonymous 3:32 said… 3:17, by the spelling of the word “behaviour”, I am guessing you are a fob. That already takes you down several notches. I say this not to be mean, but a lot of girls will reject anyone with the slightest hint of an accent.

Anonymous 3:33 said… A lot of women are out there concentrating on their career. Meanwhile, there are some women who concentrate on finding a man. These are your “low bidders,” to use the Eligible Bachelor Paradox, from above. By the time the career girls are ready to get serious about men (they have doubtless rejected plenty of men in their dash, or rather crawl, to the top), they find that all of the successful men have fallen prey to the “low bidders.” Now they are left competing for the few that remain, and with girls 4-5 years younger than them in a society that values youth.

Anonymous said… @ 3:17 – It was satire (with a bit of arrogance thrown in, I suppose). Meant to bring a laugh.

Smile Moon said… sorry, but 3:30’s comment (the latter part, not the deeming 3:17 to be a moron part) just brought a huge smile to my smiling moon face. anyone who views this whole process as a game in which they have the upper hand so then changes their behavior (however you want to spell it!) accordingly based on that, well, us women with said brains do not want to date those guys any way. “women’s eggs might be expiring but their brains are not” is going to be one of my many new tag lines. thank you 3:30 & everyone else for keeping the conversation going.

Anonymous said… 3:33: I do not think it is simply that women are concentrating on our careers (many people successfully juggle high-powered jobs and happy relationships), I think the bigger issue is too many of us spend two – three years in one wrong relationships after another. That is how many women that seemingly have everything going for them end up single in their mid-thirties.

Vijay Mehta M.D. said… I agree with anonymous 3:33
As I stated earlier in my “Modern Bharatiya Naree” So our new modern Indian woman is caught between the rock and a hard place, she means well, she knows the right from the wrong, she also has fully functioning ovaries, she needs the sexual gratification badly. Easiest way out is wishful thinking that the so-called relationship will meet her long term need (more than 95% of the time she admits to me that she should have known better retrospectively) but the damage is done.

After a year or two of playing “ghar ghar” she finally gets tired or dumped – bruised or enraged she puts herself to gather only to fall prey to similar situation in a year or two. The cycle repeats. Days become months, months become years and before she wakes up a decade is gone.

This phenomenon is so predictable that most of my conversations I start out telling them you are 32 so in last 16 years 8-10 guys came in your life – you spend 1 -2 years on each one of them – to find out that there were no prospect. Let us learn about these guys and I will know you well.

Most of the time I am right on.
That is why I have concluded that all the casual relationships you have after 25 are very hazardous to your health. If you do not feel like you are ready to get married at least make sure in spirit both of you have decided to make this work and stop looking elsewhere.

Anonymous said… Actually, women’s and men’s brains do change as they age. They become more rigid and less compromising. So for relationships, perhaps the brain does have an expiration date.

Anonymous said… In response to 3:32PM:  Actually, I just misspelled the word behavior (unlike most Indian kids I did not win my class spelling bee – ok maybe once I did in the 3rd grade). And I am not a FOB – hence my generally appropriate use of the word “the.” I was just poking a little fun. Sorry if I offended.
– 3:17PM

Desi Guy back again: After reading about the woes of my Desi sisters and the shortage of quality Desi men, I have come to realize that many of you will need to broaden your pool to find the right guy. A couple of suggestions:

#1: Do not automatically discount all FOBs. I have at least one case in my extended family where an American-raised Desi girl is happily married to a pretty progressive FOB. It may be rare, but there are exceptional guys worth considering (plus, some of the above posts practically smack of xenophobia against your own people)

#2: Break the taboo and pursue younger men. If you limit yourself only to men your age and older, you have essentially cut your talent pool in half. And if you are over 30, that is a pretty small pool to begin with. I know plenty of guys who have no problem dating a woman 2-3 years older.

#3: Get involved at your local temple (yes, even if you are not religious). I have American friends who married people they met at church and are very happy. Heck, they even have Church singles groups out there for the very purpose of hooking up people with whom you have something in common. It may be a radical concept for Hindus & Muslims, but Lord knows that these are desperate times for many of you. And seriously, you probably have better hopes of finding a good husband at temple on Sat morning than at the club on Fri night.

Most of you are educated enough to do the math and figure out what needs to be be done to increase the probability of finding a good husband. One of the dorkiest Desi guys I know did the math early and wound up going to India where he found a cute girl who would have been out of his league here. If your past 30 and not in a relationship, the time to act is now. Stock the pond and go fishing!

Confused Woman said… Apparently studies have shown that men live longer and lead healthier lives if they are married where as it’s the opposite for a woman. Why do woman feel such a pressure to settle down? Sure we have a biological clock, but so do men. Maybe they have 3-4 more years than us, but research has shown that a man in his late 30s is more likely to have children with genetic disorders. The other point I want to make is, it’s better to be happily married than it is to beat the clock. If you cannot have a kid, then adopt one. I read that article uncle posted and these points stand out to me the most:
“And as Elizabeth Gilbert points out in Committed, married women are more likely to suffer from depression than singletons. Marcus Buckingham, writing about women’s happiness in the Huffington Post, notes, “Women’s happiness with their marriage sinks below men’s at age 39.”
“From the 1970s to the ’90s, rates of divorce fell by almost half among college-educated women”
“About 80 percent of female college grads ages 30-44 have been married at some point”
“According to the most recent CDC data, for women, “higher age of marriage is associated with lower probability of marital disruption.” If you want a healthy marriage, the cultural pressure to wait only helps.”
– //www.slate.com/id/2243179/
How do you like dem apples said… I am actually open to FOBs from like a major city in India who’s lived here for a bit, but apparently the whole FOB guy/ABCD girl not connecting goes both ways. This one FOB told me, he thinks we’re independent, in touch with our roots, driven and even said more reserved than girls in India, but he doesn’t feel that connection with us. He claims we do not get their jokes, or their humor, and that we do not have the same upbringing therefore cannot relate to music, movies, tv shows which are all subtle nuances that make a big difference in the grand scheme of things.
Anonymous said… I am surprised at this suggestion from Desi Guy:
#2: Break the taboo and pursue younger men. If you limit yourself only to men your age and older, you have essentially cut your talent pool in half.
I hadn’t realized it was still a common taboo for women. Most of the women I know are very open to dating men 2 – 4 years younger. The guys typically are more skittish about dating anyone more than a few months older. They tend to see younger women as more moldable.
Anonymous said… @Apples – count yourself lucky. Most of the FOBs I have met from big cities have been super hard core partiers, have had tons of casual sex partners, etc. Most of them laugh when they hear about how conservatively I and my fellow ABCDs have been raised. Some of them are also super shady.
Anonymous 9:30 said… I’m glad that 3:17 acknowledged that he made a spelling error however spelling the word as such “behaviour” does not necessarily make you a FOB but it could also mean that you are Canadian (as I am) or from the United Kingdom, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa or Australia! All those countries spell behaviour with a “u”  And no being Canadian and a FOB are not synonymous.
On a brighter note, SmileMoon your blog is going international baby!!! Bring us news from the motherland and tell Babu I said hi.
Anonymous said… I mainly date younger guys. Last guy I dated was 2 years younger. Ever since I was in college I always attracted younger men. Anyways, it has worked out so far. Even now, I always attract men 2-5 years younger. Cougar, yes I am! lol
Anonymous 8:28 said… I see a lot of recommendations to date younger men. But as a guy, I have to warn you that it carries a bit of risk. As it is, men can delay marriage later than women. If you date a younger guy, the chances are higher that he will not be ready for marriage, or that he is just dating because you are Ms. Right Now and not Ms. Right. And that could get you emotionally stuck in a go-nowhere relationship. Of course, every guy is different. But a cold eyed realistic man could think, “Well if this beautiful, succesful, interested girl is older than me and still single, then what’s the rush? When I am older, there will be other beautiful, successful single girls out there, AND THEY WILL BE YOUNGER THAN ME!!!” So from a purely logical perspective, there is no reason for him not to wait. But I am not accounting for love. So I guess you never know…
Vijay Mehta M.D. said…

Dating a younger guy & FOB-ABCD Alliance:
One should be very clear about the difference between ‘dating’ a younger guy and taking him to a ‘mandap.’ (Older women make beautiful lover, because older women do understand!!!) When a 36 year old woman is asked for a date by 28 year old guy it may be ego boosting to the mature woman to be asked out by younger man. It may even go well initially by the guy showing his appreciation for her maturity. But watch out.
When the topic of marriage comes up he may take a “U turn.” Now, he starts thinking about the age and effect on his children. How would my friends and family react? What is my exit strategy?
Many of the guys are not bold enough to come out and break it off. So they choose the worst option possible. Since they are young they can easily burn few years, hoping that the woman will move on. This is the worst thing he can do to you – burn your time.
Does this mean younger man should be a deal breaker? Absolutely not.
What is important is when you are dating past your serious point, you need to be very clear that every encounter is aimed at exploration the feasibility of marriage. Therefore in my infra red process the issue of age and the views of family friends and how the guy feels about it are discussed at the front end.
I strongly believe that time has come for us as a community to remove the idiosyncrasy that woman should be younger than man. My recommendation is plus minus five years (as a starting point) for both the men and the women.
I feel one needs to look at the issue of FOB (made in India) and ABCD with open mind too. It is true that being raised in India vs West may pose some challenges. However, with internet and globalization many young men and women raised in India are quick to assimilate in western society and sometimes with an advantage. How long have they been here makes some difference.
So do not automatically rule out FOB/ABCD alliance, unless of course you happen to be so fixated in your ideas.
Anonymous 9:27 said… Anon 8:28, Yes “you are not accounting for love.” Not all men are cold calculating bastards. Some actually fall in love, with the woman. With who she is, her looks, her personality, how she makes him feel, how he feels when he is around her. I have always been hunted and sought out by younger men and as we speak one is on a high chase after ME. Why, because I am simply NOT a number. I am far greater than that, and some men understand this. I was fabulous and amazing at 20, am still the same now, will be fab at 40, 50, 60, and 100. Regardless of how some people may perceive women, I choose to hold myself in high regard and so should all my other sister girls. A man adopts the attitude that the woman has of herself. Ladies, you are fabulous and amazing, and do not let any chump tell you otherwise. Can anyone break Madonna’s ego? Can anyone tell Meryl streep she is expired? Can anyone tell Aish she’s no good cuz shes in her mid 30’s. Yes, I did not think so. Ladies, do not let anyone brainwash you out of your fabulousness. Stand squarely in all your greatness, glory and grandeur!
Formerly Anonymous 8:28 said… I respectfully disagree with Vijay Uncle.  5 years is too much. I think minus 14-16 months maximum is the safest bet for a woman. Anymore than 16 months, and the guy will feel the age difference more acutely. And like it or not, we are not here to change society. We are here to find a mate. Beyond 16 months younger, the guy’s mindset will begin to change towards the “I am just dating her, not marrying her” mentality. I would proceed with extreme caution in such scenarios and definitely discuss your expectations up front – e.g. when or whether you want kids, when you would like to get married, and what your expectations are for a relationship. Of course, such a conversation would probably scare away a guy who is 5 years younger right off the bat. So I guess it’s no big loss if you discuss things up front.
And to Anon 9:27: You are right on both counts, most men are not cold, calculating bastards; and older women are great, cultured and beautiful. Even the men who would do exactly as I described would not consider themselves cold or calculating. But MOST men do think like that. I am using the advantage of anonymity to do you ladies a favor, and tell it like it is – precisely because I am NOT cold and calculating.
Smile Moon said…
hi everyone, i’m taking a 10-min break from planning-prepping-packing craziness, & i might as well get rid of cable & DVR, b/c the first place i go to in my downtime now is here. 🙂 so, there’s no way that i can address every topic posted here nor would anyone want me to (as if reading through 160+ comments wasn’t hard enough!); however, all of you have given me a lot of great topics for future postings, so thank you.
since the younger guy thing is the most recent discussion & b/c i have some personal experience in this dept, i thought i’d address it. i would say (& this isnt a self-compliment b/c once you hit 25, pretty much everyone in their 20’s to 30’s looks like they’re all around the same age – god bless desi genes!) that 75% of the guys that approach me are at least 3 years younger than me, if not more. & as some of you know, my last serious relationship was with someone who was 3 years younger than me.
i would also say that 90% of those guys are completely transparent in their intentions – which are for fun & completely casual – whether they directly say so or not (ladies, these are the things that we all need to be better at reading between the lines)… this doesn’t make them bad people, but just not good choices for someone – whether it be someone their same age or older – who is looking for something serious. these guys are in the prime of their lives – making money, having women of every age fall over themselves to talk to them, etc. – & most are on the “get married in 3-4 years” plan.
however, there ARE guys who are very serious about dating women who are older than them b/c they see things in the big picture of what a WHOLE life with that person would be like (not just their unborn children, length of “time to play” post-marriage, etc.) would be. we have a family friend couple, who, if i’m remembering correctly the girl was 31-32 when she married her husband who was 4-5 years younger than her. they are this AMAZING couple who now has 3 beautiful children. i also have other friends who are in serious/engaged/married relationships who also have this kind of age difference where the woman is older.
& these relationships work for the same reason why i bothered to get into something with a non-desi guy 3 years younger than me – how serious HE was. because i was on the same page in my interest level towards him, when HE told me that he wanted to date me long distance, that he could see this progressing quickly & seriously into the future, i agreed to consider the possibility. & then in addition to his clear intentions, his actions lined up with that. i knew very quickly that my age was a non-issue to him & his family (however, being that they were non-desi, they weren’t considering the expiration date on my ovum :-P)
i honestly think that no matter how old a guy is, if you’re saying that you are “eventually looking for something serious”, “are not looking to casually date” (or however you want to say it), or anything along those lines TERRIFIES him, causes him to make a U-TURN, or RUN in the other direction, you should happily say “it’s been real. thanks for stopping by. do not let the door hit you on the way out.”
One big thing that I have already addressed in “Desperate for Check Mark Criteria” is that as a desi girl being forthcoming & remotely expressing/reciprocating interest can get you lumped into the “desperate” category with a quickness. This results in a whole lot of not saying what we really want, being disingenuous & ultimately our time ends up being wasted.
Ladies, be transparent (no that does not mean “I want to get married to you & have your babies” on day one), but soon into the relationship trust any red flag signals your gut is sending you, make sure his actions are lining up with his intentions & words & then at the right time, gage where he is at.
No matter how old a girl or guy is make sure that you are not a “time pass” (one of my favorite fob phrases) meaning that you are not wasting your time in something going nowhere (& slowly). & if you are a good person, be forthcoming in your intentions, & do not waste another person’s time either.
Vijay Mehta M.D.
Anonymous at 9:33
It is all relative.
At the age of 27 plus minus 2 years; at the age 33 plus minus 3 years, at the age of 35 plus minus 4 years and at the age of 37 plus minus 5 years. The difference age feels different as you age. Remember your elementary school, when one year difference seemed like an eternity?
Basically all these are guidelines and you need to modify according to your needs. Some women at the age of 37 do look like 29 – so it is more biological age than chronological age too.
What I am referring to is for the screening process. If you going to set your deal breakers higher you might not avail your self of the opportunity with the best candidate.
By throwing the net wider it actually gives you more selectivity.
I do have a guy who is 31 seriously talking to a 37 year old.  We need to realize that different strokes for different folks.
If we could break the rigid barrier of “men got to be older than woman” I would be very happy.
Anonymous said… Again, I disagree with Vijay Uncle. Age probably matters more to men as they get older, not less. Because men after 30 are more serious about getting married and having children. When we are in our 20’s, the pressure to have children is not there. We can marry a 28 year old woman at age 25 – what’s the big deal? But a 32 year old man will think twice about marrying a 35 year old woman. For reasons you yourself have mentioned – the expiration date on ova. Although with modern in-vitro testing and fertility technologies, this is becoming less of an issue. I think Smilemoon might find a different milleu dating 30-something men who are younger than her as she progresses into her 30’s than when she was in her 20’s dating a 3 year younger man. I could be wrong. I am only expressing my opinion and what I have observed talking to my guy friends. Of note, I do have a late 30-something friend who doesn’t mind dating older women in principle, but I do not pay attention to anything he says – because he’s in his late 30’s and still single. So obviously, he is a ridiculously picky guy.
Anonymous said… Just as there are women who are “desperate for checkmark criteria,” there are men who have the same problem. Unfortunately, some men have so internalized these criteria, that they cannot break free. One of those checkmarks is age. Perhaps it is unfortunate, but it is a tough one to break, as there are hundreds of thousands of years of precedent behind that particular checkmark.
Bela said… Hi Everyone- As evidenced by the enormous interest in this blog (good job, SM!), dating in general, and in the Indian community, has gotten harder, and most likely, will continue to do so. For those of you truly ready to find a partner….done with “placebos” and dating the wrong types of people, a helpful tip: Go to Amazon, and buy the book “First Comes Marriage” by Indian author Reva Seth. I recommend it to everyone, Indian or non-Indian. Takes the wisdom of our traditional arranged marriages, and applies it in a pragmatic, insightful way to our modern lives, and our search for our partners. It has transformed many people’s thoughts about “the right mate”, and gives a methodology to doing so 🙂 Hope this helps! Bela
Anonymous said… Bela – I have no issue with your book recommendation. However, as someone who last dated an Indian girl in 1989 (yes – I am in my 40’s), I can tell you things were much more challenging back then. Desi singles today have way more opportunities (web, networking organizations, bhangra parties, etc.) and much broader selection then my generation ever imagined (Desi one-night stands? seriously”).
Moreover, far too many of the 80’s Desis were subscribing to the values of Indian parents raised in the 50’s and 60’s who still fought marrying outside of caste or region (ugh!). Trust me…young singles today may think they have it tough, but they are way better off than the previous groups. There is strength in numbers!