2018 Relaunch 7-years-after-this-post edit: At this juncture in my life (& I have no crystal ball to tell you about the future), I have no desire to be dating/in a relationship/with a life partner/married or have kids. For the first time (& after 20+ years of caring so much about this as the “end-all-be-all” life goal), I don’t care at all and am fully engaged in a relationship with myself. I love my own company, feel no lack, and – accordingly – feel complete and whole on my own; it is an absolutely revolutionary feeling and I wish I could have known it in my 20’s. More on that later…
While I was on my way to the gym on Monday morning, I was listening to the radio and heard a segment on Hot 99.5 that discussed the “Where Have the Good Men Gone?” article published in the Wall Street Journal & written by Kay S. Hymowitz who “argues that too many men in their 20’s are living in a new kind of extended adolescence.” What was interesting about the I Want a Silver Fox Podcast was that one of the hosts (a 29 year old female) essentially wrote off all 20-something males as pretty much being incapable of being serious about dating and encouraged them to just sow their oats (even though I am born & raised here there are some expressions I will never understand) because that’s what they “should” be doing. What was even more interesting was that at the end of the segment, a 22-year old male called in saying that he was ready to settle down (get married, have kids, etc.) and everyone made fun of and balked at him.
Personally, as much as I think there is a huge population of young-to-mid 20-something guys (some even late 20 to early 30-somethings) that this author described out there, I think she failed to mention the biggest contributor to this segment of the male population not “growing up” & that is WOMEN.
Although most young-to-mid 20-something females say they are ready to settle down and are looking for their “one,” many of their actions do not necessarily always line up with their intentions. By that, I mean that although their interests might seem more refined than their male counterparts, it is difficult to say that they are actually any better than them. On any given night out, you will find them partying just as hard & getting wasted just as much… on those nights, they often are not averse to going home with a guy or to getting into casual hook-up/pseudo-relationship-type situations (yes, often with the hope that these will graduate to serious ones, but we’ve all heard of the expression “why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?”)… & the worse offense is that because they are in their prime w/ looks & youth on their side (+ an income), what they say they are looking for (a good guy & to settle down) doesn’t line up with the kind of guys they keep seeking out or ending up with (the “bad boys” who have zero interest in settling down).
Plenty of these ladies waste years of their lives in relationships that are not going anywhere; they are annoyed by all the “20-something ‘guy’ behavior that Hymowitz describes but instead of cutting their losses, they wait around hoping that how awesome they are will eventually inspire their guy to change and come around (read: graduate their boyf-girlf status to fiance status). Having said all that, there are a whole bunch of young-to-mid 20-something girls who have zero interest in settling down & are also just looking to sow their oats. While on the other hand, for those who are seriously looking, they have a long list of “check mark criteria” that they are filtering guys out based on (i.e. – age, profession, income, height, what part of India he is from, “mother tongue” spoken, etc.)
Please do not get it twisted and think that my now 30-something self is being self-righteous or judgmental of her 20-something counterparts; in my early 20’s I thought I would meet guy potentials at clubs (yes, some people do meet their boo-boos for life at clubs/bars, but if I could take a ride in the Delorean time machine and go back 8-10 years, I’d bonk young-20-something-SM upside the head & quickly tell her everything I knew before having to get “back to the future” so as to not to disturb the space-time continuum!), often went for the bad boy (or more like the super charming-but-doesn’t-necessarily-treat-me-well-or-make-me-feel-very-good-about-myself)-type, definitely filtered out guys for reasons like “He’s not North Indian & he doesn’t speak Hindi,” & most of all, when I was in my young-to-mid 20’s, I felt like I had tons of options so did not feel compelled to pursue things that were less than convenient or “perfect” b/c settling down was something that I thought would just easily happen when I wanted it to – by 27!
Having said all of that about how some women played/play a part in how their 20-something male counterparts’ behavior does not negate the fact that many men are exactly like what Hymowitz described (“as aging frat boys, maladroit geeks or grubby slackers”) without the help of women and simply because they have no desire (or need) to “grow up.” As a result, as women progress into their late 20s & often even into their late 30s, they will, unfortunately, continue to be shocked at the maturity level of a subset of the male population & wonder “Where have all the good men gone?” (& yes, many men I know are wondering the same about women). However, I assure you that they are out there; we just have to make sure we stop getting distracted by the not-so-good men/women, stop getting caught up in our expansive criteria, and really start focusing on character, and most importantly, do not come across as stand-offish or jaded b/c of all the not-so-good people who we feel have wasted our time.
Lastly, everyone should always remember this “Maxim for Life” by Wayne Dyer: “You get treated in life the way you teach people to treat you.“
Anyway, enough from me and back to the article… While I was looking for the article on WSJ, my girlfriend posted it to both her & my page; a discussion started on her page, so I posted some of those comments below. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the author’s take on the situation & although I hope you listen to the podcast and read the entire article, I posted some of the podcast as well as copied & pasted a few things that Hymowitz said that I thought were discussion-worthy below.
Thanks for reading & write soon,
From I Want a Silver Fox_Hot 99.5_Kane Show_2_21_11:
Sarah (29-year old host): “What are you expecting from a 25-year old guy who probably has the mentality of someone 18?”… Sam (young 20-something host): “I think the reason we are like this, I actually blame women in their 20’s for this.” Katie (caller): “I am 22 & I pretty much refuse to date guys in their 20’s… because they’re fairly immature, it’s really hard to have a conversation about anything worthwhile… I feel like I am babysitting” Sarah: “Guys in their early 20’s are into themselves, which they should be.” Peaches (caller) – “4 girls were with the same 4 guys since high school, & every single one of those girls ended up leaving… all [guys] care about is getting drunk, being with their friends, and doing whatever they want to do. They are all promises & no action. & that’s not saying that every guy is like that. I have definitely met some guys that are really good guys, but just some of them do not know how to act, do not know how to treat a girl & they just do not care to find out.” Colby (Coby? – 22-year-old male): “I want to get married by about 26 & have 2 kids by about 30. I find that girls my age right now are the ones that are immature. They’re the ones that are going out to the clubs. Getting drunk. Making stupid mistakes.”
From “Where Have the Good Men Gone?” by Kay Hymowitz (WSJ Online):
For today’s pre-adults, “what you do” is almost synonymous with “who you are,” and starting a family is seldom part of the picture.
In 1970, just 16% of Americans ages 25 to 29 had never been married; today that’s true of an astonishing 55% of the age group. In the U.S., the mean age at first marriage has been climbing toward 30 (a point past which it has already gone in much of Europe). It is no wonder that so many young Americans suffer through a “quarter-life crisis,” a period of depression and worry over their future.
Today, however, with women moving ahead in our advanced economy, husbands and fathers are now optional, and the qualities of character men once needed to play their roles—fortitude, stoicism, courage, fidelity—are obsolete, even a little embarrassing.
Relatively affluent, free of family responsibilities, and entertained by an array of media devoted to his every pleasure, the single young man can live in pig heaven—and often does. Women put up with him for a while, but then in fear and disgust either give up on any idea of a husband and kids or just go to a sperm bank and get the DNA without the troublesome man. But these rational choices on the part of women only serve to legitimize men’s attachment to the sandbox. Why should they grow up? No one needs them anyway. There’s nothing they have to do.
They might as well just have another beer.
39 Comments
thanks for this!!!! I was beginning to think it was just me!
You know I completely agree SM. I think that A LOT of desi girls in my age group put up a very holier-than-thou front when it comes to dating, relationships, and just their lifestyles in general. Of course none of us drink, engage in relationships, “relations” (as they so cleverly call it on the Kane show), or anything that our parents would disapprove of–noooot. Guys get the bad reputation because socially they are able to do what they want and “sowing their oats” is considered normal for them. But the fact remains that a lot of us 20-something girls really couldn’t be be bothered when it comes to marriage right now, either; if we are, we end up settling or hoping the people that we are involved with in a dead-end relationship will come around…exactly for the reason you stated. We think we have the luxury of time. Regardless of the reason, I think that its about time women take some of the slack because it’s definitely not a one-sided situation. Many of us are just as guilty as men at not being able to settle down. Theres a double standard that goes both ways between male and female stereotypes, which is a discussion that can be saved for another time–perhaps a different post, SM? 🙂
the thing is you all just dont want to see them when they stand right in front of you all.
Maybe – or maybe that it’s taking guys to get to 30 before they become “men”…later than it used to be…but the article talks about some very interesting reasons why that is.
ok…let us know then…I was on such a horrible date this weekend with the biggest loser! I swear they weren’t this bad 6 years ago.
Oh, I saw this movie… it was called “Knocked Up” wasn’t it?
This woman is unfortunately… stupid. http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/02/21/where-have-all-the-good-men-gone/ <– What a real feminist (god I hate them, but this one's bearable) thinks about good men.
Some of the article may be true for a portion of the population out there but I’m in agreement with one of the previous commenters, JV.
Ever consider the reason a lot of men act immaturely towards women in their 20’s is cuz you scare us off with articles like this, let alone the fact that most women in their 20’s don’t have any idea on what they want (whether they want to admit it or not)?
I’m dating a woman who is a few years into her 30’s now. Succesful, gorgeous, intelligent and confident. And you know what I love about her? She doesn’t try to change who I am. She let’s me watch my sports when we’re in bed together and actually enjoys the fact that I like them. I don’t have any shame in who I am around her and she doesn’t try to change me. If you want to change your man then your attitude is all wrong. I know it’s tough to admit to yourself, but maybe your standards are too high and you expect too much from your men. We don’t go around writing articles on why we’re single and blame it on the fact that you love “sex and the city” and how much the show sucks and that your lives don’t really parallel that show as much as you wish/think they do. No, we let you watch your shows and shut up. Let us watch Star Wars in peace! 🙂
And just for the record, the female character in “Knocked Up” lived in her sister’s house.
Whoops, I forgot that she actually mentions “Knocked Up” in her article… I meant to say “Forgetting Sarah Marshall” or maybe even, “I Love You Man.”
There are exceptions to every “trend” and theory so don’t take it too personally. Those women you describe also got quite an earful from Lori Gottleib’s article in the WSJ. I have no opinion either way but just presenting someone’s viewpoint. 🙂 all you good men- keep doing you and someone’s bound to notice. Maybe our generation just spent their 20s confused. Again – just a thought. 🙂
If you read the article I posted you’ll notice it’s perfectly fine, maybe even more responsible to spend the 20’s “confused.”
“Taking time to come into yourself, and to figure out what you really want, isn’t “extended adolescence.??? It’s an intelligent and fair reaction to a new economy and new gender models. For the most part, young people in big cities no longer get their first job at 21 and move up the company ranks until they retire. We’re more mobile, less loyal to a particular employer, and more focused on finding a path that suits us — not one that we take because of lack of other options. We also don’t have the same pressure to get settle down and get married at 25 — and without that external pressure, a lot of us are choosing to delay or even forgo marriage entirely (which should tell you something about the way our culture has constructed marriage, not about our maturity).
Hymowitz expects girls to get pregnant in their teens and married, like the days when lifespans were half they are now. She definitely not a good source for information on women and men.
sweet… i still have 5 more years to be me 🙂 at least now i know where the expectations lie
here’s something for the women, too: Village Voice_Dear Single Women of NYC_Its not them_Its You
I especially like the reason for her not liking one dude b/c he was too available. Dont worry, since I’m a good man, I’ll keep doing me. But really DP, you post this and you have no opinion? lol cmon….
Yup – no opinion. Everyone’s entitled to their own perspective. There are lots of explanations as to why our generation is different than the past and it’s refreshing to read someone’s viewpoint. Like I said, there’s exceptions to everything. We’re all human and all very different so just because there’s a trend doesn’t mean it applies to every male or every female. We’re individually shaped by our own life’s experiences and how we choose to handle them.
At the end of the day it takes two. Both people equally contribute to a relationship and it’s not about pointing fingers but maybe taking some time to figure out what we want before we jump into relationships. There’s also a lot of negative feedback women receive about not asking for what they want and sounding desperate because they want to settle down. Let’s be real- I know equally as many men as women who want to settle down and start a family. Playing it cool gets no one anywhere. Since when did we get so damn scared to ask for what we want from someone? And if we live in a city with countless “options” then what is the harm in asking? Maybe our parents generation had it right- put all your cards on the table and if someone’s cards line up with yours and you’re both ready for that level of commitment then move forward. If not, be honest and move on. No one is saying that in searching for love you shouldn’t be practical and maybe that’s been the biggest challenge for us. We’ve lost that practical and rational side to relationships. Hence the books: he’s just not that into you, marry him, etc.
To be fair, in defense of every guy I know- it’s taking a lot longer to be financially stable enough to start a family and for those men and women that work hard to achieve that in their 20s- I commend them for it. For those that take a little longer – it’s ok but then be honest about your priorities in life and where you stand.
Just some thoughts. 🙂 Thanks for all your responses! Love understanding changes in social behavior so thought this was an interesting perspective.
This is a great article. I would have titled it as “Where is the Sanity gone to?” So many ‘middle aged (:P) men and women’ are chasing perfection that does not exist. I know that never in the history of Desi culture ‘the husbands to be’ were as open to the needs of ‘the wife to be’ as they are now. The only problem is that they have not kept up with the expectation.
The sanity would be if they all of them realize that marriage is not a cake walk. It takes lot of efforts and some pain.There are times when you may wonder if it is all worth it. But deep in your heart you have to believe that a committed relationship with one is far better than temporary hopes with many.
It is a bitter pill and one has to get ready to swallow it. Once you do that, you will find good men and women not too far from you. We do not have a shortage of good men or women but there is a shortage of sanity.
As far as the extended adolescence is concerned, your aunty thinks I am in a state of extended adolescence! That is not bad as long as your adolescence does not come in the way of achieving other things in life that are good for you in short and long term.
@ SSHS, thanks for sharing your thoughts. in my opinion, when it comes to looks & being shallow, both sexes care about looks & suffer from some form of shallowness. in my experience, attraction is actually more important to men whereas women (who definitely also filter out based on looks) are more often to date someone who is somewhat or significantly less attractive then them. men are visual beings to a greater extent than women are & as the expression goes “men fall in love with their eyes, women fall in love with their ears.”
it is unfortunate that your friend is being written off for something that he doesn’t have control over, but i imagine that when it comes to dating, even he would likely ask for a picture of a girl or perhaps would prefer someone who is slimmer than he is. i could be wrong but what i’ve seen is that more often than not men are looking for a woman who is more attractive than they are.
@ GN, i really liked what you had to say on DP’s page, so i hope you don’t mind me moving it here. what you said about our 20’s being tumultuous is certainly true, but i’ve known countless couples who were mid-med school/residency, 1-3 years post undergrad, living on opposite sides of the country completing grad school, the guy was unemployed, etc. who were dating during these times and got married either during them or soon after. i think it has less to do with the time period in our lives (the “20’s) and a lot more to do with the fortitude of character of our generation as a whole versus certain individuals who are able to – irrespective of where they are at in their lives – “settle down.??? I believe that these people understand that life will never be perfectly settled, so although we can do our best to get that point – solid career + income, house, car, etc. – they go into their relationship/marriage with the “we will make this work no matter what??? mentality.
In my opinion, a lot of women possess this character trait (even at younger ages) & are willing to make the relationship they are in work irrespective of their circumstances, but unless the guy they are dating is of the same mindset, those relationships don’t progress. I know I’m giving guys a lot of power here, but they really set the tone for what direction a relationship will go.
When it comes to the “cards of life,??? although they might be completely different at 27 then they are at 25, there is always a chance they will also be different at 31 to 34 to 37 as we all know that many people that age have lost their jobs, their homes, etc. I agree with what you said about a lot of couples in our parents’ generation not being genuinely happy, but I still can’t help but wonder how they – in their young 20’s – managed to leave everything they knew & everyone they cared for to come to a foreign country, most with ~???$8 in their pocket,??? to embark on a path that was lined with struggle after struggle, without phones or any form of e-communication, were able to make their lives work, so why can’t WE – who have every one of life’s conveniences & basically a situation that is the complete opposite of theirs – for the most part, make it work (“settle down???) until we are “well settled????
& forget our parents generation, I have tons of family & friends in India who dated in their early 20’s, but b/c the cultural expectation there is that you don’t date for years & years and women/men are not “crazy” for wanting things to progress to the next level soon after beginning a relationship, many couples got married soon after completing undergrad, had their first child while the husband/wife were completing their graduate degree or starting a new job & they are genuinely happy. In India, even if you are dating, you are not necessarily doing all that happens in Westernized dating, so there is an actual urgency to get married on both the guy & girl’s part. Here, that’s not the case and I think our Western mentality (me first living my life fully, then I’ll think about you/we) as well as individual character/values have more to do with people not settling down in their 20’s than the # itself.
To people reading, I know that between GN & me, that was a blog post in itself – sorry 🙂
Just reading the blog, it made me think. Nowadays, looks and perfectionism have become the top priority of everyones list,that looks aren’t everything. I have a friend, who is 28, and has been ready to settle since he was 23. He know what he wants, is mature, and well educated. But the fact that he is overweight and a medical condition makes it hard to lose the weight, girls won’t even look at him. There are shallow girls out there that don’t even look twice. He is not the hottest guy, but is at least decent looking. So its not that men are not mature, but that women are at fault as well….and its the women who are shallow that makes men more immature.
”Since when did we get so damn scared to ask for what we want from someone? And if we live in a city with countless “options” then what is the harm in asking? Maybe our parents generation had it right- put all your cards on the table and if someone’s cards line up with yours and you’re both ready for that level of commitment then move forward. If not, be honest and move on.”
I think it’s mostly because we realize that in our 20’s, where we are at one point is not where we will be in a few years. Asking someone to marry them when you’re still unstable in your job and know you’ll be moving on is kind of immature and irresponsible. Plus, in your 20’s you’re still learning tons of stuff about who you are and the world. If there’s a person with you that can survive the tumultuous nature of the 20’s then one should consider marrying them – not marry them and then find out if that person is capable of dealing with all of the changes (that’s why so many young people end up divorced or unhappy within years of marrying someone – because they didn’t adequately assess where they might be in the future).
I know a lot of people from our parents generation that are unhappily married and/or just dealing with the other person rather than actually loving them. They stay together because of kids or because they don’t have any other options. It’s very rare for me to see someone from our parent’s (Indians anyway) generation that I know is genuinely happy with their partner.
“No one is saying that in searching for love you shouldn’t be practical and maybe that’s been the biggest challenge for us. We’ve lost that practical and rational side to relationships. Hence the books: he’s just not that into you, marry him, etc.”
The practical and rational side to relationships is the opposite of what you’re proposing. “Put all your cards on the table and if someone’s cards line up with yours and you’re both ready for that level of commitment then move forward. If not, be honest and move on.” That’s more like playing poker with your relationships rather than being practical and rational. Being practical and rational is waiting, dealing with important issues together, dealing with the roaring 20’s and then deciding if it’s possible to live with that person for as long as possible. The reason the other persons cards might not “line up with yours” might simply be because he or she is able to see that in the near future there might be more drastic changes to his or her lifestyle and he or she wants to see if it’s possible to survive that with the other person. Truly loving someone is not simply dismissing the person just because one person is “apparently” ready for a level of commitment the other person might not ready for (right now). That person might well want to have a family etc. but just not when it’s impractical or when there will be a lot of changes in the near future.
I think that’s the biggest issue… a lot of girls just don’t want to admit that the 20’s aren’t the way they were a few decades ago. They’re still in that mindset that… well if the guy isn’t ready to get married right NOW “he’s just not that into me!” Well maybe he’s really damn into you, but just realizes that there will be a LOT of issues to deal with and he’s taking them one step at a time. To borrow from your analogy… What one’s cards look like when they’re 25 might be entirely different from what their cards look like when they’re 27. Taking things slowly, getting through the huge issues of attaining (and maintaining) a job, attaining (and maintaining) a place to live and grow, and deciding whether you like how the persons cards are changing etc. is practical and rational, not seeing their entire hand at one moment’s time and deciding then and there.
Just my opinion though.
Here’s my response, sorry it’s so lengthy.
Certainly “fortitude of character??? has something to do with whether or not men or women decide to get married and settle down. Also, yes life will never be “perfectly??? settled. What I’m saying is that a large proportion of women expect men to settle down at a point where life is not at a stable plateau, but at a point when it is rough ground. Women, don’t want to wait – patience is not a virtue for these women. Yes, a man could certainly “settle down??? when it is rough – but that to me is not responsible. That, to me, shoulders a huge burden on men. A lot of people can’t “make it work no matter what.??? What’s I’m saying is… if the woman really loves the guy, cares about the relationship etc. then she shouldn’t merely be looking to make the guy “settle down.??? She should stay with the guy until both of them are ready to move on to whatever they believe the next stage of their relationship is. Of course, some guys will never be ready to move on to the next stage, and the same is true with many women who fear moving on – at that point it is okay to break it off and move on. But if a guy says that he’s not ready to get married, but definitely wants to in the coming future… it’s stupid for a girl to break up with him simply because she wants to get married and he doesn’t (and is able to provide intelligent reasons why). If everything else is alright, why is that one thing such a big issue?
“To embark on a path that was lined with struggle after struggle, without phones or any form of e-communication, were able to make their lives work.??? You said it right there, they had very few options. They didn’t have the same dating options or choices as us. They didn’t have the same level of education that we do now. In the case of women – the woman usually didn’t have a job, or if she did it wasn’t very serious. A woman’s role was usually to be a housewife, and take care of kids etc. The women usually followed the men no matter what. When they came here, they realized that both parents would have to work – and because they didn’t have the education, the options, etc. the women usually stay with the men and the men with the women. Like you said, they made it work… not love. (I’m not saying that’s such a bad thing, but if you’re looking for love it’s not the best outcome). It’s not the same today… women have MANY more options, and so do men. Many women expect compromise and communication etc. A lot of them don’t just follow men blindly to new lands, and have kids without thinking etc. Same thing with men… a lot of men don’t just give up potential futures to be with a woman only because his parents/society think “it’s time.???
What I also said about cards comes into play… I said that you should see how the persons card’s are changing and whether you like that or not. What I meant was you should see the way they handle the game (of life). Whether they are adaptable, whether they realize things change, whether they can handle the way that you play the game… Basically, assessing their character over time and seeing whether it’s a good one. For some people they can decide after a year that the person’s playing style matches/complements their own, for others it may take a long time. “I’ve known countless couples who were mid-med school/residency, 1-3 years post undergrad, living on opposite sides of the country completing grad school, the guy was unemployed, etc. who were dating during these times and got married either during them or soon after.??? These people probably dated for a while before deciding to get married… which I think is definitely right. None of them, I bet forced the other to “settle down??? simply because they’re 25 or something. They probably waited until a stable point in their life and then decided to get married. I’m not saying that there aren’t people capable of deciding they love the person, in their 20’s. I’m saying that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with NOT wanting to get married in one’s 20’s (because of all the reasons I mentioned).
India is entirely different socioeconomically and culturally. Many women their (even today) give up a great deal of their freedom to be with their husbands. In India, it is also possible to live with less money. Further, I’m sure that the ratio of unhappy marriages far outweighs happy marriages in couples that were “forced??? to marry because of social pressures. Further, social pressure from family and extended family almost assure that even if a person is unhappy in their marriage they are not going to divorce (not really a THAT bad a thing, since it prevents people from stupidly divorcing for small things, but it is more of a problem when the marriage faces serious issues like abuse). The number one thing I think, though, that keeps marriages working in India is the fact that a lot of women are submissive. You can take issue with me there, but it’s definitely true. As women improve their status in India and they are no longer being forced into marriage with inadequate education and very little money, the divorce rates are increasing.
That’s pretty much what I have to say.
Some grammatical errors slipped past me there.
Anyway, ultimately the idea that because men don’t want to get married in their 20’s they’re immature and don’t possess that same characteristic as women is kind of unfair to men. That’s why I take so much issue to stupid articles like these, written by women who would prefer society to return to the way it was back in the 40’s/50’s – when men and (more so) women couldn’t do jack except get married early and produce babies in their 20’s because society expected that of them.
All of this just reminded me of the book & movie “Revolutionary Road.”
Friends,
Discussions and analyzing relationships would not help anyone every relationship is different. There is no one thing which can solve the problem it works differently for different people. However there are some basic life rules.. no matter how a guy looks like..he wanted a good looking girl…it is in men biology. Men wanted to some one sensible and caring girl… some one educated for their better not for fighting for woman right etc…so stick to simple rules, if you trying to get to know someone…first thing understand what are reasons for he is single and what kind of people he is associating with and why…. first and basic is how much each other physically attracted…I have many friends, who are doctors in their early to mid 30s come from very well to do family..honestly no one can explain why they are single. Many girls ( in their late 20’s) trowed at them hoping to like them and latter regretting and complaining but they did not blame themselves for not questioning their situation before start anything. It is embarrassing but it is truth..one guy has gone out with 3 girls who are friends for many years..girls went to school together.. guy has took three girls to home..you decide how easy…i asked guy ..he said they are giving away…so why not.
Keep things very simple..don’t demand too much if you have not got what you want by mid 20’s it is very unlikely you will find that..so find way to make your life very successful don’t let your non-sense or someone non-sense ruin your life.
Education is to help you to get more control of your life not ruin your life.
hey GN, thanks again for your thoughts. i think both our perspectives & insights are valid, & i completely agree with you that there’s nothing wrong with guys (or girls) in their 20s choosing not to get married, so i’ll just address a few things (although i’m sure it’ll still get long!). i’ve personally never been a situation where i gave a “let’s get married or i’m out” ultimatum to a guy nor do i actually know (or at least i can’t remember) of any girlfriends being in those kinds of situations; however, i think it’s only natural though that most women in their mid-to-late 20’s who’ve been dating a guy for a significant amount of time would wish to take their relationship to the next step by at least getting engaged if marriage isn’t ideal at the time. i also know plenty of couples who dated & were going through big transitions like moves, career changes or starting grad school, who got engaged, had an extended engagement (usually around 2 years & every now & then 3 years) & then once that transition period was done, the couple got married.
i think it’s not only natural, but that it’s fair & sensible that a girl, after having spent an extended period of time (say 1-3 years), have a “what’s next?” conversation (w/out giving ultimatums) about the future direction of the relationship. too many women, like DP said, don’t say anything – they never put their cards on the table & then end things in frustration after having invested many years of their life. in my case, although this relationship didn’t end up working out for other reasons, one of the best relationships of my life involved having an honest conversation about both of our intentions in week 1 of dating and collectively figuring out what would make the most sense for us “next step”-wise based on where both of us were at with our careers, school, etc. as our relationship progressed.
as for the article, although the author did generalize about the immaturity of 20-something men, she wasn’t saying it was because they didn’t want to get married, but because she felt that their behaviors were in line of those of teenagers. the author also talked a lot of the time about “pre-adults” and was including women in the trends that she was describing. i can’t imagine that this author or any women are wishing they were back in the 40s/50s when women were homebound, unable to express themselves & their sole purpose was to get married, procreate & manage the home; however, i think that females in our generation do wish that certain aspects of how relationships transpired and how men treated women/viewed dating were happening in present day.
i personally really enjoyed the article & even though the last 3rd (ish) of the article was devoted to the “puerile shallowness” of men, it didn’t come across as a guy bashing to me & instead showed how men transitioned from the way they were in the mid-19th century to the youthfulness of some present day 20-something men.
one last thing, i won’t take issue with what you said about women in india being more submissive; you might be right, although personally, i would say that they are simply more sensible than submissive. the women that i am talking about in india live in pune, mumbai & even small cities like saharanpur, UP. none of them were forced into marriage (most educated mid-to-upper class people are no longer forced into marriages) & from what i could see these wives were equal partners or some even “wore the pants” in the relationship. i saw a tremendous mutual respect in these marriages & a love that was much more subtle than what we see & hope to feel in the western world.
anyway, i digress & i’m passing out tired, so i’m not even sure i’m making sense anymore!
thanks again & g’nite 🙂
On what you said about ultimatums: I was talking about the point DP made – “Put all your cards on the table and if someone’s cards line up with yours and you’re both ready for that level of commitment then move forward. If not, be honest and move on.” It seemed like what she was saying was that if the guy wasn’t ready for that level of commitment at that point in his life – “move on.” Like I said, I don’t mind having that conversation (it’s definitely an important one to have after 3-4 years) but if the guy isn’t ready to get engaged or get married at that point in his life she shouldn’t just “move on.” The original quote from what I wrote, “But if a guy says that he’s not ready to get married, but definitely wants to in the coming future… it’s stupid for a girl to break up with him simply because she wants to get married and he doesn’t (and is able to provide intelligent reasons why).”
On the article: If you read the article I posted (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/02/21/where-have-all-the-good-men-gone/) you would see that she is essentially making that exact argument… that the furthering of women is responsible for men becoming man-teens (she essentially blames women).
Some of the other articles (linked in the article I posted) she writes point out her racist and sexist view point on marriage and other topics (one of which definitely highlights the exact point I made about the 50’s and 60’s.)
On your point about India:
Here are some articles I found on that topic…
“This is acutely true of a new generation of women unwilling to do what preceding generations of women have been raised to do: adjust, to any length necessary, to save a marriage.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/19/world/asia/19iht-divorce.1.10178712.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
“Most of those splitting up are members of India’s thriving, urban middle class whose lives have been transformed by India’s boom, and whose aspirations are radically different to those of their parents and grandparents.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12094360
As for your anecdotal evidence – your friends might not have been forced into marriages but I’m sure they must have been “peer pressured” by either their parents or something to rush the process. Yes, upper and middle class marriages are no longer being forced, but also upper and middle class divorce rates are increasing which only goes to support my point that rushed marriages are not a good thing. Also, Indians (the ones I know) are amazingly good at hiding their internal strife in public. So while it may seem like the women “wore the pants” in the relationship or were equal partners… the fact is, India is still very patriarchal in a majority of the families; a lot of women follow the men and adjust to their needs. I’m not saying they can’t succeed… they certainly can – if one partner gives up a lot more than the other.
Ultimately the point is, if women want the traditional man who marries them quickly and early in life… they must be ready to give up a great deal to support the guy and their family; and there the truth comes out… a lot of women aren’t ready to that. (That’s why the author of this article blames women.)
Also here’s a good quote from an AskMen article…
“That said, we’re not so sure that “growing up??? should mean “conforming to societal expectations,??? and we’re really not sure that being a good man means turning oneself into a character from a 1950s sitcom.
Hymowitz’s article advances an oddly traditional conception of gender roles. Women are suffering through their single lives, tapping their feet impatiently as they wait for their irresponsible boyfriends to hurry up and marry them so they can get down to the important business of having babies and hosting dinner parties. Men, by extension, should aspire to be patriarchs, to have offspring, corner offices, and white picket fences.”
http://www.askmen.com/entertainment/austin_500/584_why-men-dont-need-to-marry.html
Just in case you don’t read the article, here’s another quote from it I think adds value to the point that men don’t have to get married to be mature.
“Consider Mark Zuckerberg. While reading this attack on pre-adulthood, we couldn’t help but think of the Silicon Valley wunderkind. Here’s a kid who drops out of Harvard and moves to California with his buddies. In many ways, he’s the poster boy for the frat-boy lifestyle that Hymowitz criticizes. Except that he and his friends, while working out of a house they rented in Palo Alto, launched a multi-billion dollar company and laid the groundwork for the most important technological innovation of the 21st century. Our point here is not that every guy who fails to follow social convention is a Zuckerberg-in-waiting, but rather that the model of adulthood that Hymowitz is so quick to dismiss can still yield value. There are alternative modes of manhood.”
@ MM, it seems you are talking about “why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?” & i think that topic – although it might likely get me ostracized by the desi community – is a whole separate discussion.
@ GN, thanks for posting all the awesome links. like i said in my post, i think women have are big contributors in whatever the current dating situation is & in how dating transitioned from the “good ol’ days” to how it is present day. personally, i still don’t think hymowitz was saying marriage = maturity, but that she was simply describing what extended adolescence in a subset of the male population looks like. i also didn’t find her article as a recommendation to go back to traditional gender roles, but that’s the beautiful thing about interpretation & to each their own.
i have a crazy day so won’t be able to write much more, so i just wanted to say thanks for the great conversation & for a lot of awesome content for future posts. i hope to hear your perspective again in the future & thanks DP for getting this all started! 🙂
@ GN, call me dense (which is very likely the case) & to each their own opinion & interpretation-wise, but i still don’t see how the author is blaming anyone or double speaking; IMO, she seems to be making general observations about economic & trends in society while describing a subset of the male population’s (in her opinion) adolescent behavior. & if she is blaming anyone or anything, it seems to be “pre-adulthood.” i think an excerpt from her book (if that’s what the 1st article was) or even this follow-up are both just small glimpses into the big picture of what she is talking about. & if what she is saying in her own defense is true, the only thing i’d blame her of is poor choice of titles. “manning up, where have the good men gone?” & this one 😛
Once again, I LOVE the fact that she succeeds in blaming WOMEN for why men don’t want to get married. Gotta love this woman’s doublespeak.
For those who can’t see it: “My book describes sociological and economic tectonic shifts – primarily the shift to a knowledge economy and the rise of women… The knowledge economy has postponed marriage and created a new stage of life. It has also produced a wealth of gratifying jobs for the college educated that can be done as well (or perhaps better) by women as by men. This too is something entirely new. The success of women has completely upended the historical relations between the sexes, which adds to the confusions of pre-adulthood. Now add to those facts the influence of an anti-male strain of feminism. As a number of commenters have correctly noted, feminism celebrated women’s independence sometimes to the point of making men seem an expendable part of family life. Throughout the 1990’s when many of today’s pre-adult men were growing up, the entire culture turned into a you-go-girl cheering section. Girls ruled, while boys drooled, or so the t-shirts and book bags said. Boys might have also observed their uncles or fathers, perhaps good men, being taken to the cleaners by wives who kept the family house and children.”
“I tell this tale of male woe at some length in ‘Manning Up.’ What I also argue is that pre-adulthood, while an understandable, and perhaps even necessary, response to the knowledge economy [ultimately caused by the rise of can-do women], provides poor soil for boys to grow into men.”
Read the quotes I took from her article and see how she says…
*Success of women completed UPENDED the historical relations between the sexes.
*Women are getting jobs that men once used to get – something new.
*Anti-male feminism – men saw their fathers, uncles, etc. get destroyed by evil feminist women. Men seemed expendable.
*Women are getting more degrees; the latest Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers show that by age 23, there are 164 women with bachelor’s degree for every 100 men. –> This ties into a comment I read from that article, the education system currently caters to women heavily, with feminist readings that show the power of women etc.
*Girls, because of their new found power, found ways to insult boys “girls ruled while boys drooled.”
= Ultimately, this “phase” (as she calls it) was instilled in boys by the fact that women rose to power which is not a good way for boys to grow up. “When I say success, I am not cheerleading.”
Her word choices and tone are very important to understanding… she really thinks the rise of women is what essentially destroyed the traditional nuclear family.
Actually for that education catering to women premise, I don’t even have to turn to the comments, Hymowitz says it right here: “Christina Hoff Sommers has argued that one of the reasons boys are turning off to school is that the classroom has been rid of the stories of adventure and heroism likely to appeal to them. Star Wars is clearly filling a vacuum in boys’ and young men’s imaginative lives.”
“It’s no exaggeration to say that having large numbers of single young men and women living independently, while also having enough disposable income to avoid ever messing up their kitchens, is something entirely new in human experience. Yes, at other points in Western history young people have waited well into their 20s to marry, and yes, office girls and bachelor lawyers have been working and finding amusement in cities for more than a century.”
“Unlike adolescents, however, pre-adults don’t know what is supposed to come next. For them, marriage and parenthood come in many forms, or can be skipped altogether. In 1970, just 16% of Americans ages 25 to 29 had never been married; today that’s true of an astonishing 55% of the age group. In the U.S., the mean age at first marriage has been climbing toward 30 (a point past which it has already gone in much of Europe). It is no wonder that so many young Americans suffer through a “quarter-life crisis,” a period of depression and worry over their future.”
“Single men have never been civilization’s most responsible actors; they continue to be more troubled and less successful than men who deliberately choose to become husbands and fathers.”
Those quotes (from the original article) highlight Hymowitz viewpoint that if you aren’t married… you aren’t mature. If you STILL don’t get it, you just don’t want to see what she’s saying.
“I see it as an expression of our cultural uncertainty about the social role of men. It’s been an almost universal rule of civilization that girls became women simply by reaching physical maturity, but boys had to pass a test. They needed to demonstrate courage, physical prowess or mastery of the necessary skills. The goal was to prove their competence as protectors and providers. Today, however, with women moving ahead in our advanced economy, husbands and fathers are now optional, and the qualities of character men once needed to play their roles—fortitude, stoicism, courage, fidelity—are obsolete, even a little embarrassing.”
Some more evidence from the original article showing that Hymowitz believes the advancement women are at fault for men not advancing to the marriage/father state.
Honestly, the fact that most people aren’t seeing it just amazes me (or ignore it). In all her comments she some how finds a way to include 1) the advancement of women is correlated with men becoming less like men and more like boys and 2) marriage = entrance to adulthood.
In case anyone is interested – //blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/02/23/note-to-angry-guys-drop-the-darth-vader-decor/
@ GN, like i said on DP’s page, i still don’t see it as blaming men or women (more of just an account of recent trends) or no marriage = immature, & that’s not because i’m purposefully choosing to ignore anything; that’s just my interpretation of what the author wrote.
forgive me if i’m wrong in making this assumption, but it seems (based on your finding other articles that support the opposite of what hymowitz said & taking the time to copy & paste pieces from her article at length) that this post by hymowitz has really hit a nerve with you & it also seems that i am frustrating you or perhaps several of us out there are for just “not getting it.”
i’m more than open to continue this discussion, but so that i don’t frustrate or irk you any further, i just want to let you know that my view of what hymowitz said will stay the same. i will continue to think what i thought of it when i first read it – that it’s a great article, that if nothing else, hit a nerve with a lot of people & got a good conversation going on the topic.
It’s not the article that has hit a nerve with me, but the interpretation you (and girls like you) take on – without evidence, or examining the article with greater depth. All you see is Hymowitz’ over-arching point… that a lot of males are prolonging adolescence and it’s not good blah blah. You fail to see the reasons why she is claiming this is happening. Further, what irritates me more is that you said, “i just want to let you know that my view of what hymowitz said will stay the same. i will continue to think what i thought of it when i first read it.” My god, it’s like all of my evidence and arguments are coming up against a brick wall of ignorance.
I found those articles because I don’t like saying things without having sufficient evidence or clarity (and support for my position), not because the article hit a nerve with me. I like good arguments and debates, especially when one side concedes to a superior argument. Unfortunately a lot of times it devolves into exactly what you just did; One side unable to provide any evidence or justification for their view aside from just “well I’m gonna continue believing what I want to believe.” Even the name of her damn book is, “Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men Into Boys” HOW THE RISE OF WOMEN HAS TURNED MEN INTO BOYS… not something like, “An Exploration of Males who Refuse to Grow Up,” no, the title itself says WOMEN RISING = MEN TURNING TO BOYS.
Hymowitz arguments are absolutely stupid, and the fact that people are taking them seriously is what irritates me. I would come out and change my view if you presented a stronger argument for your case. There’s nothing wrong with changing your mind, but you seem to be defending your viewpoint without any justification for doing so (aside from declaring it’s simply your interpretation). Sorry if that’s harsh, but that’s the truth.
Here are some other good links on the article supporting my view, even though they won’t “change your mind.”
“Hymowitz says that twenty-something men are puerile and shallow, and that their inability to get their careers or their romantic lives together is forcing women to give up on having kids or sending them to the sperm bank so they can “get the DNA without the troublesome man.”
While this might be true for some women, if you read Hymowitz’s book, she basically admits that there isn’t good data to bolster the idea that the extended adolescence of young men is bad for marriage, parenthood, or society. The vast majority of college educated men and women are still getting married and having children, and their marriages are more stable than ever before. Hymowitz concedes:
[P]readulthood could be considered a policy success of epic proportions. College-educated mothers are far less likely to divorce than their less-educated counterparts…The reason is pretty clear: people who marry later divorce less. Couples who wait until they are 25 to tie the knot double their chances of staying married.”
//www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/theres-nothing-wrong-extended-adolescence-men
//www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-asghar/where-are-the-good-men-pe_b_826250.html
I’m 29, and when it comes to qualities in a life partners, I’ve definitely gone through the process that most do – creating a laundry list for myself, to thinking that was unreasonable to picking the top 5, getting into a relationship(s), realizing that something was “missing” and finding myself single again. Well, I’ve recently returned to those lists, but this time distinguishing what was REALLY missing the last time. It wasn’t the content of those lists, but rather how I WAS when creating them.
I used to believe in not making “lists” b/c I believed that I couldn’t have these qualities in 1 package, but what I had failed to distinguish was at that point, I wasn’t necessarily aware of the self-work I had to personally do to be the mirror for the kind of person I wanted to be with, how to even do it in ways that would align my thoughts, aspirations, daily actions, vision, and most of all am I consistent with in my lifestyle or am I simply “pretending”? And so sparked several years of exploring various modalities of self-development, meditation, and the like.
Similar to how you described in your article, those qualities which were super appealing to the old Parth, are not so now such as the physical stuff, but more on top of the list now would be workability, how do we approach problems, are our visions & values aligned, for example..? I am I even clear about my purpose enough such that I can be with someone who resonates? Or do I still have some “me work” to do? Are they cool with being w/someone who shares the same values, but is also living a life of exploration? Am I cool with that? What’s my definition of security? What’s there’s? Expanding on the “Maxim for Life??? by Wayne Dyer quote: “You get treated in life the way you teach people to treat you.“ – I’d say, the quality of the women I meet are a reflection of how clear I am about what I want in them, and that’s a function of how clear I am about who I develop myself to be…
thoughts….? 🙂
@ GN, you don’t know me personally, but if you did, you’d know that i’m a pretty mild-mannered person, so not too much (not even you, in your opinion, being “harsh”) will get me worked up. also, although i enjoy debate & hearing the perspectives of others, i don’t believe that the point of debate (here’s a reference for you: //www.thefreedictionary.com/debate) is one party conceding to the other’s argument. lastly, i know it’s irritating to you (although it seems like its infuriating to you), but i do believe that you can like things – whether it be an article, a restaurant, a musician or a person – without having to give evidence or support, & simply “just because.”
anyway, that’s just my opinion & you, of course, have your’s. however, i imagine that it was less me saying that my opinion will stay the same & more that something fundamentally hit a nerve with you about hymowitz’s article, b/c i don’t think you would otherwise be so worked up about the topic or feel the need to defend your point in such a forceful way.
& although i appreciate you sharing additional links for people reading, i’m personally done with this particular “debate,” so i’m not going to be exploring this non-issue-for-me further b/c as far as i’m concerned other than thinking that this was a good article that got an interesting conversation happening (here & nationwide), i am neither pro- or anti-hymowitz or her perspective.
however, i did want to say that i think it’s great that you’ve read hymowitz’s book, & considering that you have, i’m sure you have a much better perspective than most of us who haven’t read it. so, there, you win or you’re right, or whatever it was that you were hoping to hear. one last question for you… considering that you think calling people ignorant (especially over this particular subject which is a bit mind boggling) & USING CAPS TO MAKE YOUR POINT are effective ways of getting your point across, i’m just curious how old you are.
anyway, thanks again for sharing your perspective & for the good conversation.
@ Parth, I’d like to use your comment for a future blog post, because so many of us (probably the vast majority of us & myself definitely included) are seeking qualities and character traits in our potential “life partner” that we may not even have in ourselves. Very few people are introspective or thoughtful enough to take pause & instead of critiquing every one else out there & believing things like “there is no one good left” (which is what a huge # of still singles think), taking a hard look at oneself & determining whether, as you said, I have more “me work to do.”
Also, I believe that although we all say that values & character are what are most important, if that were the case, I think far more people would be getting it together on the relationship front. IMO, in general, the desi community tends to get caught up in a person’s “curb appeal” as Vijay Uncle calls it, a long list of check mark criteria, sizing one person up against another more “ideal” someone else, & writing people off for usually very superficial reasons. I can’t say that I’ve never been guilty of this (although I’d like to believe it wasn’t a purposeful thing), but now that I know better & am personally more in tune with my core values, I’m asking myself a lot of the same questions that you are when approaching this search.
It’s time for me to start my day, but thanks for posting & for being willing to share your name 🙂
Hi Smile Moon,
I kept meaning to respond but I waited until last night because I thought it would help me construct a better reply. Last night, I went on my first and only speed dating event in my life. Most of the men were mid 20s to early 30s. It’s not that they weren’t good men, in fact, they were perfectly nice, upstanding British men. The problem was that being good is not enough.
This is in no way meant to sound like I’m boasting about myself, but a description of my problem. I am an Indian-born American 25 year old living in London. I think I’m decently attractive and I have a masters in English Literature but that doesn’t means that I will bore you with syntax issues or engage in philosophical debates about 19th century Russian authors. I don’t want to get married tomorrow but I do eventually. I don’t think I give men the wrong signals because if anything, I’m more brutally honest. I don’t do the one-night stands and such because I don’t want to do that. I am looking for someone who is as eclectic and well-rounded. Someone who is engaging and can hold up a conversation on practically anything. Someone who balance fun and seriousness. This is harder to come by that I had ever imagined.
There have been various debates men about why more single British women live on their own compared to their male counterparts who live at home with their parents.
Exhibit A: //news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7999579.stm
There’s nothing wrong with living at home. I come from a culture where my parents would be thrilled if I did that, but that’s not the path I’ve chosen. But I think you learn a lot more about balancing the fun and the drudgery of life when someone isn’t there to do your cooking and cleaning and such.
I’m a fairly introspective person and I don’t genuinely feel like I’m asking for a lot, but what does good mean anyway? Reasonably responsible, nice, caring, committed, etc? That’s all great, and I do think that women do have a tendency to put together a composite of their ideal traits and want someone to fit them. But I think we can and do also get real.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I think a lot of what you say can apply to certain 20-something year olds, but there are plenty of us out there who it doesn’t apply to. We just don’t what a good man, we want a good man for us (and we’re not looking for someone better than us or something magical or something impossible), which is pretty much like finding a needle in a haystack.