…for giving me such great content for a post when I am in a massive time crunch. Thank you! 😀
SIDE NOTE: Readers, please also see other comments from the last post, “The Great (Desi) Age Debate” on everything from the age discussion to the “short girl/guy complex” as well as responses to the below comment. Also, although there was a whole blog post dedicated to it (“Getting her #, but not calling it” & woah nelly, it caused quite a stir), there is more on calling instead of texting in the previous comment thread as well.
& if you haven’t checked it out, although you would need a day to get through the 177 comments (!!!) that followed the posting “The comment that got its own blog post” there was a really interesting (to say the least) & expansive discussion on everything under the sun…. purity, being a V/BAV, organ size, abuse in the desi community & much much more…
“Anonymous 3:14” said…
Some common pitfalls, from a guy’s perspective.
In the above discussion of some of the common perils and pitfalls in South Asian dating, there are a few in particular that I have encountered that I thought I would share with the blog:
(1) INEXPLICABLE LOSS OF INTEREST
Often I will be introduced to or meet girls that are extremely promising prospects, and who I may initially find quite attractive. Over the course of a few meetings/dates, however, this interest seems to vanish for a number of reasons:
(a) the girl asks for a commitment too soon; (b) the girl is not a challenge or develops feelings for me before I develop feelings for her; or (c) I get to know her better and discover something that is a deal-breaker.
I am not sure how much of this is a pitfall versus me being overly picky, but I do feel that there *may* be an issue here since there appear to be many such situations where I have moderate-to-high interest which suddenly disappears after a few meetings. To some extent this is part and parcel of the dating process, but I wonder if it is necessary for one to constantly engage oneself and evaluate one’s loss of interest. Or should you just trust what you feel?
(2) FEAR OF REJECTION
I have always been and continue to be most afraid of expressing interest in the girls that I am most interested in. It’s the girls that put me at a loss for words, or put a lump in my throat, that I seem to avoid at all costs…probably because rejection by them would hurt a lot more than girls that I was never really that interested in to begin with. The potential with these girls is sky high, and I probably owe it to myself to pursue these opportunities, but I find myself so hamstrung and so afraid of what might happen that I often invent excuses as to why it would not work or why I should not show interest.
(3) CASUAL TRAP
In the process of trying to find a potential partner, you may come across someone whom you cannot for whatever reason see a future with, but who is willing to see you casually. In some cases she actually senses the loss of interest on your part and tries to hold on to you through sex (the old adage about women exchanging sex for love; and men, love or the promise of love for sex).
A number of thoughts may be going through her head: (a) she hopes that you will eventually see how great she is and ‘come around’ (b) she doesn’t see any other great prospects and figures that having fun with you now is better than nothing (c) it’s easy, it’s NSA, and who knows maybe she can really handle it (probably not).
I have found that in some cases, women will try to even ‘lure’ you into a relationship by sleeping with you, and then acting like you are a player when you tell them you are not interested. To be fair, I will admit that I have used the line “I am not ready” when in reality I have just lacked the courage to tell them that I am not interested in them.
LESSONS FOR GUYS:
(1) Don’t give into temptation. Stay away from casual relationships; they will likely prevent you from finding and/or pursuing the One.
(2) Don’t be afraid of pursuing the girl that makes your heart skip a beat. You know who she is. Why is it okay for you to take risks in so many other aspects of your life, but be reluctant to take a chance in the one area of life that is arguably most important?
(3) Be realistic. If you have dated many amazing women in your life, you cannot expect that your future wife will exceed all of your previous dates in every respect. Think hard about what is most important, and what you can compromise on.
Now if I can only practice what I preach…
My reply:
Anonymous 3:14, *sigh*… if only we all could practice what we preach. Thanks again for your comment; I think it provides very on point insight into the male perspective. Ladies, we have limited control over point #1, & no control over point #2, but point #3, well, we have full control there. Let’s stop being naive in our beliefs and actions and even worse let’s stop blaming guys for the aftermath we perceive after something doesn’t pan out. I am a firm believer that the writing is always on the wall in these kinds of “casual” situations; we just unfortunately choose to ignore it. More on that from one of my comments in the last thread:
& On that note ladies, again, I really recommend being genuine from the beginning (w/out being crazy). there is no harm in telling a guy who you are spending more than “hi/hello” time with that you are not looking for something casual (& if it does cause harm, as much as it sucks, you’re probably just a time pass to him & HJNTIY – “He’s just not that into you”). The kind of guy you really want to be with will respect you for not wanting something casual and let the ones who get scared be on their way. As I said in my posting “Casual Relationships,” it’s a whole lot of CASUAL that has gotten us all in this predicament.
One more thing ladies, I cannot say this enough, as women we are all about “commitment” to everything, but modern times require that we not get so committed to any one guy until he gives us very good & clear reasons to. for example, we’ll meet a guy out that we really like & then we do not talk to anyone else. or we start talking to a guy who we are interested in, & stop considering other guys (whether they be in real life or online) only to have that one thing not pan out & all those other guys end up as non-options. Ladies, I promise you that guys are not “in it to win it” until they make it clear with their actions.
So much of the frustration that women feel is that they are constantly trying to figure out everything a guy does from his in-person behavior to a text, an emoticon in that text & everything in between. I have definitely gotten caught up in it & I have seen it make some people completely looney tunes; now THAT is not that guy’s fault. When there’s so much “what does that mean? where are we at?” we are just being blind to what he’s making clear.”
More on the “Casual Trap” in my previous posting (& the discussion that followed) from January 21st called “Casual Relationships & then some:”
Write Soon,
ORIGINAL COMMENT THREAD: This post had 64 comments and like pretty much every other comment thread, they were all over the place but all very interesting and insightful.
Anonymous 9:00 said… SM, with that last part: “they are constantly trying to figure out” – I know women will find counter examples to this, but the VAST majority of the time, if the guy really likes you, it will be super duper obvious. Some as 3:14 says may not have the courage to say it directly, but their actions usually make it incredibly obvious (and I do not mean 2 texts to you a day). Indian women complain that guys are too complicated when in reality, like you said, it’s often them creating their own looney tunes out of nothing at all. That said, for the guys that do play games, it’s time to man up and be more clear if you are liking her a lot and see serious potential with her, or, if not, just tell her that you are not interested (ive found from my experience that most girls are mature enough to handle the rejection).
Anonymous 9:10 said… 3:14 says “(3) Be realistic.” — the sad truth, as Vijay Uncle points out, is that while the # of single Indian guys and single Indian girls is roughly similar, the % of those single Indian girls that are beautiful, smart, and all around amazing is way higher vs. the % of Indian guys that are handsome, charming, all around great. So if you are one of those guys, “be realistic” means YOU have the choice and the ability to be far more picky and hold out for someone out of this world. The reality is you do not have to compromise on much – so do not. But for the Indian women that are beautiful, smart, all around amazing, there are so many of you that you cannot expect to land the very best guy; pure supply demand here. So 3:14’s last line really does apply to you: “Think hard about what is most important, and what you can compromise on.”
Anonymous 10:01 said… Anon 9:10 is right on the money.
Anonymous 10:21 said… I think that the percentage of professional, accomplished, highly succesful and handsome Indian men is way higher than Indian women with the same characteristics. However, more of the Indian women are still single, which may create the illusion under which the above posters labor. In general though, Indian women have the same problem as Indian men – they are short, overweight, and have egos way out of proportion to what they have to offer.
Anonymous 10:24 said… Anon 10:21, Are you referring to yourself? “they are short, overweight, and have egos way out of proportion to what they have to offer.” lol
Anonymous said… Great post – I am a guy and Anonymous 3:14 hit the nail on the head.
Anonymous 10:31 said… This is a tangent from the line of discussion, but no, I am referring to most single Indians, women, and men. Maybe height is out of an individual’s control, but the weight issue is one that is especially perplexing. If we are single, why do we allow ourselves to be overweight? Shouldn’t it be our homework as single people to head to the gym? Why do we eat at the Indian Buffet when we should be getting the side salad? We should be spending more of our time making ourselves healthy and beautiful by exercising and eating healthily.
Anonymous said… Smilemoon, women do have control over point #2. They can nudge a guy who is interested in them, rather than wait to be pursued. There is no reason to wait idly by on the sidelines, because then you get approached by a lot of obnoxious, aggressive jerks.
Smilemoon said… hey everyone! yes, desi guys are NOT complicated; we are just sadly very “uh duhhh” to what they make crystal clear in their actions. & for those of you who have been reading, you all know how i feel about e-communicating (texting, BBM, e-mail, gchat, facebook & everything in between)… GREAT for “c-ya in 5!’ but not for “hey, how was your day?”… “good, your’s?”… “good, but busy.”… “gotcha, cool.” i’ve gotten into these kinds of e-conversations (that most often never progress beyond that) & due to my perpetual fear of “being rude,” in addition to thumb exhaustion, i’m always thinking “eh? what is up with this guy?!” again, i’m not saying you have to call, but if you are REALLY interested you do have to something more than text.
now i do not want this to get into battles of the sexes, but 10:21, 3 of your adjectives all had to do with professional success (which is not shocking considering men in general get paid more, promoted more, & so on than women nationwide). & sure you mentioned being “handsome,” but i believe 9:10 was talking about some of those outward qualities of attractiveness & general personality versus a standard of success.
& i’m assuming 9:10 is a she, & although i might be biased, i have to agree (& i know plenty of men who agree without taking offense – as in “my wife/gf is WAY better looking than me. i totally lucked out!”). although someone of the same sex/race cannot give a fair opinion on either side, i personally believe that the proportions are definitely skewed in the favor of indian men to be able to have their pickings & many – if not most – are very aware of it. Hence, they are often passing off “really good” for “something possibly even better.” & if a lot of desi girls in their younger years did not let a lot of guys waste so much of their time, they would not be in this predicament.
& i’m all for working out & being healthy, but just looking at my own friend circle (is that a fob expression??), i would FAR from say that the vast majority are overweight. sure, you cannot bounce a quarter off of most desi people & yes they do not have perfectly flat abs (which is almost impossible for some due to desi genetics – that is a fact), but is that really important?
anyway, i’m all about attraction & its necessity (i.e. – i need to be attracted to someone to be interested in them), but i’m concerned for people who so strongly share 10:31’s sentiments, b/c (& i’ve said this before too), you can always marry shilpa shetty, but whether it be 3 of your babies that she pops out, age, or god forbid, illness, no matter what she will never remain looking like shilpa shetty. just as jon-beautiful-abraham (who is at an advantage, b/c HE doesn’t have to birth babies!) can go bald, need rogaine, get an uncle belly, etc.
& personally, i would never want to be with someone who was so particular about those kinds of things b/c i can only imagine what life would look like after those “stubborn post baby 15-30 lbs,” slowing metabolisms, or aging.
Anonymous 11:03, my nudging a guy along constitutes of reciprocating a guy’s attention, “had a great time. Look forward to seeing you again” & then it pretty much stops there. what would you recommend in nudging a guy along? & how can you really help guys who are not even approaching you b/c they are possibly intimidated/fearful of rejection??
Anonymous 5:15 said… I know quite a few good looking Indian men who are married to so-so looking women of inferior career accomplishment and average or histrionic Indian female personality – I would dare say even the majority of Indian men. However, a smart man would always say he got lucky, his wife is better looking than him, that dress doesn’t make her look fat, etc. A wise man would even fool himself into thinking so.
Brown girls have it rough said… Some Indian men choose spouses that are inferior to them (career, personality, and sometimes even looks) because of their own insecurities.
I never thought about this before until a gorgeous funny doctor friend of mine mentioned how much she thought her career was seen as a negative in the dating/marriage market. At first I thought she had run into some rare loser that thought that way but then a really good male friend of ours chimed in and agreed that many of his peers would shoot down a woman that was more successful than him because his ego could not handle it. SmileMoon, I’d love to see a discussion on that!!
Ain’t that the truth said… 5:55 is right on. Having a great career feeds your own sense of accomplishment, allows you the lifestyle you want, and serves an insurance policy should your marriage fall on tough times but it really does not get you any points in the desi dating world if you are a woman. I have had far too many of my guy friends say that they would prefer that the woman be less career-oriented and more focused on family. One even went so far as to say, “Intellect is not necessarily something I need in a mate along as she has some basic common sense.” Then again this guy always complains about how boring his dates usually are and doesn’t ask them out a 2nd time.
Anonymous 6:12 said… The problem with medicine in particular is that it is so inflexible. I am a male doctor who would love to marry a woman doctor. But all of the ladies my age are in residency or fellowship or seem to be stuck somewhere I cannot go and in some sort of occupational limbo. Your career as a doctor isn’t settled until after 30 and that is a huge barrier for women in medicine. Especially since most of them want career oriented spouses. I have heard many a female doc say they would not consider a man unless he was “at least a surgeon.”
Anonymous 6:26 said…
1) Inexplicable loss of interest – This is only inexplicable to the person on the other side. The person losing interest always knows exactly why they lost it, but they will not ever tell.
2) Fear of Rejection – Bogus. Sometimes, there can be a fear of ruining a friendship and a circle of friends by making a move on a woman/man who is a friend. That is a legitimate fear, because making the move can have real consequences.
3)Casual Relationships – They are the biggest temptation and pitfall to modern dating. We all get lonely, and want someone’s company. But if you lose your loneliness, you will lose your drive to find Mr./Ms. Right. So do not do it.
Anonymous 7:21 said… Ah yes, the topic of medicine for women – they need to focus on residency + fellowship etc until 30+ and by then time they are done and ready to settle down, Indian guys say “I want someone in her late 20’s. ” Also, the career thing only intimidates a small subset of guys. Most of my guy friends in NYC are in finance and are not at all turned off or intimidated by female doctors — possibly because in this modern world, doctors are paid poorly compared to those in finance. Easy to not be insecure when you make 5-10x what your dermatologist wife makes. So it all depends on the guy and his background. Most are turned off by Indian female doctors not for the profession but for the arrogance (despite female desi doctors being a dime a dozen, they act like hot shots).
Anonymous said… Smilemoon, when I talk about being overweight, I am referring to single people, not people in relationships or who are married. Why the distinction? Because there is a big difference between falling in love and being in love. Falling in love is a very finicky thing, and you want to maximize your chances of it happening. That means maintaining a good figure – muscular for men, and slim for women. Obviously, once you are married or in a relationship, no one who loves you will leave you because you have gained a few pounds.
The Original “3:14″ said… In regards to what women have control over, I would argue that they do have some control over #1. In that, it all has to do with how they “play their hand”. The hand (their looks, their personality, etc.) is what piqued the interest in the first place; now it is up to them to “play” it as best as they can.
While we are all mature adults and can all agree that game-playing is not the way to build a healthy relationship, there is something of a “mating dance” and some people are good at it, and some are not. However, this is a skill that can be acquired.
Some off-putting behavior in the mating dance may include a girl asking “where is this going?” too early, making it way too obvious that she is asking “infrared” questions instead of ascertaining that information more subtly, and/or reminding the other person that she is not up for something casual. The best way to communicate the latter is through your actions.
I once dated a girl who was actually “put off” when *I* asked her where the relationship was headed. That’s when I knew that the girl was relationship material. She wasn’t eager to jump into a relationship with me because of some perception of meeting checklist criteria, but she wanted to take her time to actually get to know me. There’s nothing more of a turn off than a woman who gives off even a whiff of desperation or neediness. If it seems like she has other options (not because she is pretending, but because she does!), then she is automatically more attractive. Thus, SM’s points about keeping multiple options open is a good one.
Another is the issue of exclusivity. Personally, I find it a ‘turn off’ when a girl I am dating tries to pull a “lock down” move and get you to sign onto an exclusivity agreement. This is almost a death knell for a would-be relationship. At a certain point, it is no doubt important to establish commitment, but the way in which you do so is key.
I am a big believer in not necessarily articulating things. That is to say, as soon as you feel compelled to put it out there that you and him are an item, it feels somewhat unnatural and forced. I understand, that without doing this, there’s always the fear that the guy could be seeing other girls, etc., but this is where your judgment comes into play. If there really is something going on, if you have found a good guy, then you do not need to worry. You do not really need to put it out there in that fashion.
Basically, what I am driving at is the paradoxical notion that the more cool and laid-back a woman is about relationships, the more attractive and desirable to the opposite sex she is going to be. And if she can use her judgment and skills to attract and only spend time with quality guys, she should have no problems at all in finding a great life partner!
Anonymous 8:43 said… I am a guy, and I have always thought desi women complaining about being devalued for their career was based on an over-generalization from other times and communities. They hear it on ‘Sex and the City’ and think it applies to them. Certainly, there are plenty of men in this world who won’t marry a woman if she has a successful career, but I know very few *20s/30s desi* men who do. Most desi men are successful themselves, so meeting someone who is also successful is considered par-for-the-course. It is actually very difficult for us to find a woman who is *so successful* (in her 20s and 30s) that we’re somehow threatened by this. I think women often ignore other reasons why men aren’t interested and instead attribute it to their career–seems like an easy way to blame everyone else.
That said, a lot of successful desi men who are not doctors particularly just hesitate to date desi doctor women. This has little to do with female doctors’ standing or income (which as already noted is often much less than other professions). One reason is that men just find that dating a desi female doctor is boring. Yes, there is an asymmetry where desi male doctors are relatively more preferred, but you can put that squarely on the women’s and parents’ preferences, not on us guys. We’re happy with any other type of successful career woman.
Anonymous 9:44 said… I am a girl, and okay fine, maybe it’s not the being successful that bothers desi guys but a lot them do not deal well with an independent girl… a girl who has her own opinion… someone who isn’t needy… and doesn’t agree with everything he says. All of that intimidates a lot of these guys who are all about control.
Now I am back in the market and looking, and I seriously think this mating game stuff is a lot of BS. I have seen a whole lot of the girls you are describing “pique” the curiosity of a whole lot of guys only to NOT go home with them and also NOT ever hear from them again. That doesn’t line up with Anon 3:14’s 1, 2 or 3. It’s just people wasting other people’s time. How long is everyone going to “dance” until and where will that leave all of us? 45 & single?
ACT cool and laid back? I did a whole lot of being “so cool” and it landed me where I am today. I am now seriously considering Vijay Uncle’s infrared dating because it takes all of that game playing out of the picture.
Anonymous said… Uncle please answer: To Vijay Uncle, How is the infared dating coming along? Are people finding matches? I know match making is not an easy process…I was just wondering if any progess was made whatsoever. Do people even contact you regarding any potential matches or are you finding people holding back?
The original “3:14″ said… Different strokes for different folks. I do believe that there is a segment of the desi market that will be well-served by Vijay Uncle’s system. But for others, it may seem a little forced or unnatural… a little too much like an arranged marriage.
Because, truly speaking, we *could* get married to any number of people and work to make the marriage a success. But we do not want that, we do not want what our parents had, we want something more… which may or may not be possible, but there is a risk involved.
Infrared dating to me, seems like a comfortable middle ground, that gives up some of that euphoria associated with love and finding your partner that the Western world has taught us to seek, but it also gives us greater certainty in the outcome: a solid life partner with whom we can build a future.
If you feel that it’s for you, I strongly encourage you to try it.
Smilemoon said… hey again, so okay, i’m playing devil’s advocate here, but say there are guys who want girls who are “less” successful than them, how is that any different than 99% of us girls wanting guys who are (usually) more successful (established, better off financially, etc.) than us…?
& to the poster who mentioned outward appearances mattering more when we are single versus when we are married, i agree with that 100%. however, again, i’m not sure where you live, but i live in chicago which is pretty densely populated with desi folk, & i just do not see this massive amount of overweight people (& i promise you that i’m not the kind of person who would not notice). & attractiveness has a lot more to do with than just physique, and there is really only so much that people can truly change.
regardless, i would still be wary of anyone so caught up in their perception of my physical appearance even if it was in a complimentary way. it would feel too high pressure, all about appearances & image – all which i would not manage well.
at the end of the day, the BIG problem is that everyone on the whole spectrum of attractiveness is waiting to get the perceived-“10’s” (i say perceived, b/c i truly believe 90% of us would not be single if we did not have each other’s opinions to care about)
anyway, sorry this was all over the place (i just had nyquil & woah, i am fe-eeeling it!), but i agree again with anon 3:14 that we should not “pretend” like we have options; we should go out & actually have them.
zzzzz…. *cough*… zzzz….
Vijay Mehta M.D. said… Anonymous 3:14, There is a lot of truth to your statements. It is true that information does not translate in the change in behavior. We live in age of information (or misinformation) explosion and it is only a click away. So the most important thing to do is to get out of pontification mode and get in action mode.
Highly successful gorgeous Ivy Leaguer Desi women find themselves at an impasse in spousal search. First, their success comes at the cost of lack of free time. Second, the success does make them difficult to deal with it.
Assertiveness in professional life may not translate in to a desirable attribute in marriage. Third, their expectations are high which is understandable. Fourth many men even though they themselves maybe successful are not necessarily looking for empowered woman. So many of these women see their success in professional life as a negative in personal search.
Anonymous at 9:44 PM Once you come to realize that all this game playing is detrimental do join us in Assisted match making profess.
Anonymous at 10.02 PM – No marriage yet! But frankly I am very satisfied with the progress. 34 women and 18 men have posted in public album and many more have submitted profiles to be shared with the right kind of match. Participants do feel empowered because both start out in infra red process. Frequent progress reports keep them engaged in the process. The feedbacks have been very valuable as reported by the participants. It is honest and not vindictive. Besides it gives me a window to how the participants are thinking. And since both participants are aware that after given time there might be another prospect it encourages them to look at the total package in timely manner. Most important thing – we are not burning time and participants are making genuine effort at looking at the total package.
Anonymous at 10.02 – You are absolutely correct – different strokes for different folks. I am only interested in helping the subset that is serious and willing to have an someone like me be the go between. For others there are all the other avenues.
“When you say we don’t want what our parents had. We want something more” – it sounds like delusional thinking to me. Having monitored hundreds of marriages and divorces in your generation I think if your generation comes even close to what we had, it would be fabulous. The fundamental basis of marriage – sacrifice, patience, commitment, family first etc are in short supply in ‘me, me, me’ generation. Many of you want what you want and want it now. Many of you are so fixated on curb appeal that they refuse to look at the core.
At the end of the day what works for you is the best approach for you. I am trying to learn from all the feedback, including yours.
I ain’t sayin she’s a golddigger said… SM, I am not sure your statement “99% of us girls wanting guys who are (usually) more successful (established, better off financially, etc.) than us…?” is accurate. Here in SF, I know many many desi women that would be comfortable being more (outwardly) successful than her future spouse. Their requirements for the guys from a professional perspective typically are that he be passionate about what he does and smart (demonstrated by a variety of factors and not just income). These women are doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, entrepreneurs etc. I find that it is almost an inverse proportionate relationship — the more successful a woman is, the less she cares about whether the man is making more than her. It is typically the less successful women that are really hung up on how much a man makes, perhaps to compensate for an area they are weak. Even my doctor female friends that want to marry doctors want to do so because they can relate to the specific demands of that profession and prefer doctors to other fields that make more money (like finance). Sure there are a lot of lot of desi women that will not date a guy that makes less than them but it ain’t anywhere close to 99%, at least in San Francisco among the more successful set.
Anonymous 5:55 said… Smilemoon, the difference between a man who is comfortable with less success in a woman and a woman who demands a more successful man is twofold: the latter makes women shallow/superficial, and the latter is much harder to find when you yourself are a successful woman, which results in more women being single. It is, however a boon to men with pinnacle careers because it makes them highly sought after. So feel free to carry on. And let that be a lesson to men: a successful career first, and the women will come.
Anonymous 6:09 said… To 944PM: Guys are intimidated by strong, independent women who are not needy? Wrong! Guys love women like that. I would not want to have to babysit my wife. And families function well when women are strong and empowered. In my family I would say my mom is a bigger honcho than my dad although he has always earned more money. I fear though, that you may be using terms like strong and independent when you may really be describing stubborn and overbearing. These traits are all too prevalent in young Indian princesses, who are raised to believe the world is their oyster.
Vijay Mehta M.D. said.. The man who wanted so much more than your parents generation: I am well aware of how many of you thought that most marriages in your parents generation were either dysfunctional or outright worthy of divorce. Trust me, in spite of all our imperfections we provided a stable home where you had the same dad and same mom. The phenomenal success your generation has a lot to do with two parents remaining plugged in to your welfare during the thick and thin of life. The power of a nuclear family in shaping our next generation is infinite. Let us not make our women and men discover a convenient truth – ‘no ring no regrets’ or ‘road to motherhood does not have to go by wifehood.’ If it were to happen, the price your grand children will pay would be catastrophic.
Anonymous 11:47 said… 6:09 Anon, you are spot on. Guys do love strong women who are not needy. And families, like mine and yours, function best with strong women. Same thing for me: mom is a bigger honcho, Dad earns more. But stubborn, overbearing, arrogant, reminds you of her success — those are all too frequent and huge turn offs. And SM talks a lot about boys being raised like Gods in the household, but trust me, I have met enough “Daddy’s little girls” to know how spoiled desi girls can be. Your post was fantastic and I could not agree with it more. And I agree Vijay Uncle that a huge part of our generation’s success is that there were 2 parents and they remained plugged in. But did you see how selfless, kind, and down to earth most Mom’s in the last generation are? The desi girls of our generation are simply not like that, few and far between (I would say 1 out of every 20 I meet at best).
Anonymous said… Vijay Uncle – Our parents’ generation did do a great job of staying together through thick and thin. Their expectations of their spouses were low (meaning they were not expecting a neurosurgeon John Abraham soulmate that got them on every level, just a nice person of similar upbringing would do) and their tolerance was very high. Our generation would have far more relationship success and less divorce if we adopted both their low expectations and high tolerance, no doubt.
However, in some cases, the relationships of our parents were exceedingly dysfunctional and that is reflected in their adult children today who are abusive, controlling, etc. Perhaps these children would have been better off had their parents split up early on rather than constantly viewing dysfunctional relationship behavior. I do have Indian friends that say that it was almost a relief when their parents divorced despite the stigma in our community because at least there was finally some peace at home.
What likely is as big (if not greater) factor in the phenomenal success of our generation was the importance placed on education and hard work during our developmental years. Because of US immigration policy, nearly all Indians who came here came after 1965 either with an education or for an education. A highly educated parent population, with the immigrant mentality of working hard, is very likely going to yield the same in their children. Because of our parents’ hard work and financial success, many of us did not have to work at McDonalds flipping burgers in college and were able to take unpaid internships that were solid resume/skill builders. That goes a long long way. In fact, the # 1 reason I would like to marry someone Indian is because there is a very high likelihood that he is going to have the same priorities for our children’s education.
Oh lordy lord said… 11:47- I am a girl and I think you make some good points. By in large, while our parents have raised us to be academically successful, we haven’t always learned some of the practical skills than our white American female counterparts have because it was assumed our fathers (and then husbands) would take care of these things. Case in point, I roll with a crew of a half dozen fairly accomplished desi women. Of the six of us, I was the only one who knew how to change a flat tire when we were on a road trip. One of them commented that her mother (after living and driving in the US for 30+ years) still does not know how to pump gas. I know many Uncles that are fearful of how their wives will manage after they pass away. The lack of self-reliance is a HUGE problem in our community, and likely one that needs its own VijayUncle champion.
That said… all of these girls are selfess, kind, down to earth to the core. I have seen them go the extra mile and make sacrifices for friends, family, previous boyfriends, etc. But the bad behavior of a lot of Indian guys has made many of us a lot more guarded and less willing to behave as selflessly as we would want to. Case in point, one of the girls is a doctor, talented painter, very pretty and was dating this guy who was starting his own company. That girl made him dinner 6x nights a week in support of his long hours for the 2 years when they were together despite the fact she was working just as hard. What did her boyfriend do? Cheated on her with a white girl from his company and then married a nice Telugu girl from India a month after their breakup (his explanation was he could not marry my friend because she wasn’t Telugu and his family would not approve). My friend is now dating another guy but do you think she is making him dinner every night? No — she is busy taking on additional shifts at the hospital to make more money, hanging out with her friends (who were her post-breakup support system), training for a marathon, etc because she knows there is no guarantee this new guy will work out either.
Guys — if you feel that today’s desi girl is not as invested in you as your momma was in your dad — you are absolutely right. As a general matter, the desi guy of today does not provide us the same love, commitment, fidelity, sacrifice, that our dads’ generation did for our mothers. We just are not prepared to give in same way knowing we are likely getting little in return. It is very very sad. I would love to have a marriage like my parents and actually would be thrilled to pamper my partner the same way my parents do for each other but I just do not see any desi guys capable of doing even a fraction of the same.
I would like to think there are only a few bad apples out there but every single girl in my crew has been cheated on by a desi guy they were with for over a year. When asked why they cheated (was the other girl prettier, did they have a better connection, etc), the answer was not any of those things, it was simply because the opportunity existed. Half of us have been subject to or threatened with physical violence by desi boyfriends. And you wonder why Indian girls today are not as selfless, kind, down to earth as your momma?? Would your dad have pulled this crap?
Vijay Mehta M.D. said… Anon at 11:52, children would rather live in a divorced home than a totally dysfunctional home. And many of our dysfunctional homes have damaged their children.
While it is easy to trace the root of many evils, poor childhood, let us remember that dysfunctional behavior is not genetic but a learned behavior. It may be difficult but not impossible for you to unlearn that dysfunctional behavior. Dysfunctional childhood is a poor excuse for a 35 year old.
In our times we blamed our dysfunctional marriages to arranged marriage – we did not have as much say in the choice. In your generation you have plenty of choices. But I see far more dysfunctional marriages in your generation. The reasons are curb appeal based matches (this wears off rather quickly), unrealistic expectations, lack of patience and tolerance, Peter Pan syndrome and too many choices outside the marriage.
As much as I am committed to help those who are seriously looking there is a subset of your generation who will be better off never getting married and by doing so you will be doing yourself and someone else a great favor. Don’t do it unless you are prepared for it and in marriage there is no one-time fix but it needs a life-long maintenance!
Anonymous 12:57 said… Hey 12:35, 11:47 replying to your message. I think you have some very fair points. The threatened or real violence is a common sad occurrence (and not just with GFs; desi parties have fights at a far higher clip than most others) and our Dads “would not pull that crap” like you said (in fairness, while less bad but still bad, the emotional violence of many desi women of our generation is crap our Moms wouldn’t pull either). The cheating for sure; desi girls cheat too but at a far more rare clip than desi guys, I agree with you on that.
But then my point is — you are saying your girls are broken. They WERE the pamper cook 6x a week girls, but now they are broken from the abusive, cheating, awful desi ex BF and now have given up on being that sweet pampered type since they tried it and it blew up on them.
So now let’s think about the next guy they meet. Assume he is the eligible super nice guy that is totally faithful, sweet, and loving. For the year that he is dating her and being like that, she is not doing jack back for him. She inside is saying “Well it backfired the last time, this may not work, so I cannot do anything yet. I need to wait and see, this may not work out in the end after all” —- well, he interprets her lack of doing anything as “I am doing all this for her, she is a princess expecting this treatment and doing nothing back.” He is going to walk away from that.
I feel awful for the boyfriend of the painter doctor friend of yours. He is in a bad bad place. He has a GF that is barely around since she is too busy making dough with extra shifts, hanging out with her girls, marathon running, etc etc — sure, she has a reason for doing all that (she was broken by the last guy) but she is behaving in a way caused by the LAST guy, and the one who is getting the crappy treatment due to her caution is THIS guy. You should tell him to walk away and find someone that isn’t broken with the baggage. There are plenty of them. And I feel bad that all of your desi girl friends have been cheated on, but I have dozens of single desi female friends, and maybe 20% have had that; the other 80% are baggage free.
Vijay Mehta M.D. said… anon 12:35, You are correct about the reactionary changes in Desi females. By the age of 30 she has experienced half a dozen men who by and large have abused her psychologically, physically or sexually. This justifies being skeptic but not cynic. Then women go to the next extreme and are in a mode of “I will get you, before you get me.” So the entire male population is made to pay for the misdeeds of few.
So many of you have told me, ‘Uncle I can not trust anyone.’ Well trusting someone is a function of how much you trust yourself. One needs to learn the lessons from past bad experiences but not decide that now I am going to screw him before he does to me. The most powerful weapon you have is ability to care and love. Being a ‘B’ is not sexy!
I have noticed personally that while all these women complain loudly, about the bad boys, but in my matchmaking they invariable pick the one who is likely to do the same. They do not even want to explore the straight forward guy with good qualification and no drama.
I am actually very intrigued by this phenomenon and have not quite figured out yet. But I have few profiles that do stand out in looks – education – virtues but not many female takers. This is a well recognized phenomenon at 16 – 20. Why they cannot shake it when they are in 30’s is beyond me. The typical explanation from women is ‘I did not feel chemistry!’ I guess I have to invent the fix for their chemistry sensor!!!
Oh lordy lord said… 11:47/12:57- Thanks for your reply. Let me clarify – the painter doctor friend is not doing nothing for her BF, in fact she does a lot for him but the chief difference between the situation with the first BF and the current one is that none of it is a given. Meaning, she is still willing to do a lot for a guy she is with but it is much more thought through than done blindly. How this plays out:
1) She held back at first. It wasn’t til he showed what he was willing to do that she really started going out of her way for him as well.
2) There is a lot more negotiation. She and the current BF discuss who has what going on that week and then act accordingly. If he’s got a major deadline, yeah, she’s making him dinner and if she’s on call, he’s making dinner. She has been a lot more careful not to set up patterns that involve her consistently doing the lion’s share of the work — it is a much more equal division of labor overall with the acknowledgement that some days one or the other is doing more/less.
3) None of what she does now comes at a big cost to her overall wellbeing. When she was making dinner 6x for the previous boyfriend, she gave up her social life and her workout routine (she is naturally very thin with a high metabolism so she looked the same). If her current boyfriend got a big deadline and she has her running group that night, she’ll leave leftovers in the fridge for him to eat and still go to her run. Before she would have cancelled the run and made something fresh for the old BF.
I think you do not get to your 30s (either gender) without some baggage (lessons) from your past — the trick is making sure it fits neatly in the overhead compartment and isn’t weighing down the plane.
My friend’s current BF seems pretty happy (in fact, I would be suprised if he doesn’t propose by the summer). My point was that today’s desi girl can not afford to be as BLINDLY selfless/sacrificing as our mothers. In today’s most successful relationships there will be likely a lot more shared responsiblities and negociation. The days of Sita are long gone, my friend.
Anonymous 2:28 said… To Oh lordy lord (11:47/12:57 again) — I agree that the days of Sita are gone, as are the days where the husband earns the money, works 2 jobs if he needs to, sacrifices his youth to work hard and save for his family while being totally content if his wife is having kitty parties while the kids are at school and he is killing himself in his job. With this economic future ahead for our generation, likely are gone the days where the wives could buy gold and Benzes to their heart’s content, too. So it goes both ways.And I do not know too many Moms of the last generation that did things blindly — they did them because their husbands worked hard, gave her and her children comfortable lives, and remained faithful (not too many affairs in our parents’ generations). To claim “BLINDLY selfless/sacrificing as our mothers” is really giving little credit to our fathers — or at least to mine, who’s tremendous; I cannot say for other Dads but get this sense when hearing about most desi Dads of our parents’ generation.
And as Vijay Uncle points out, your girls have a 100% cheated-on rate because they are picking the bad boys over and over; something that should have ended when their teenage years ended. Plenty of guys who would have treated them right and are great “looks – education – virtues” combo guys are out there as VJ Uncle says, with no takers. Uncle, you say you dont get this phenomenon – I do not get it either!
Oh lordy lord said… 11:47/12:57/2:28- We are really saying the same thing here. The women of our mothers’ generation did what they did knowing “their husbands worked hard, gave her and her children comfortable lives, and remained faithful”. They could make any sacrifice for their husbands and have full faith without question (this is what I meant by blindly). I did not in the least mean to give too little credit to our fathers. Mine is by far and away the best human being I have ever met and if I met a man half as kind as him (or my uncles or male cousins), I would be pretty estatic. What I was trying to say is that our fathers did so much for their wives that our mothers did not need to watch their backs.
As to the bad boy appeal, no, not here, my friend. If I got even a whiff that a dude was shady, I was out the door faster than Lindsey Vonn was down the slopes. What happened is a lot of us dated the “nerdy” Indian nice boy. One day, that dude realized he actually could have some game and decided to play around. It happens a lot more than you think. My ex’s own best friend was shocked he cheated on me.
If you have got these great guys that Vijay Uncle talks about, we will be happy to charter a plane to San Francisco for them.
Anonymous 5:22 said… Ladies, do not go overboard to please a man or give up your routine (workout, social) to please a man. Anonymous 3:14 is right about how men have this great need to do their mating dance and win over the woman. So, let them do their dance, you sit nicely and watch the dance. After he has put in significant amount of effort in wooing you, then you can start reciprocating.
Oh lordy lord makes good points too. We have all been hurt in some way in the dating process. That does not mean we are broken, it means that now we have learned lessons and are wiser. Also, as she states giving blindly ladies is a bad idea. Assess whether the guy is putting in the effort, and then put in your effort. Till then, the only dinner you cook is your own, the only laundry you do is your own as well.
Vijay Mehta M.D. said… Thank you Oh Lordy Lord. Free travel to SF in A chartered plane sounds great! Can I also come with them as the Assistant?
Anonymous 7:25 said… To 5:22PM, Ladies, you must remain disciplined. DO NOT listen to your soft side. Try to belittle the man as he does his mating dance. When he calls, do not call back until the second or third call. Always refuse his first suggestion. Remember these words of wisdom – they will serve you well:
Passivity will allow you to direct his actions.
Negativity is your ally in making a man chase you.
Manipulation is your hammer in keeping him.
Reluctance is the spark that will keep your romance alive.
NEVER give yourself fully – keep your heart in reserve for the one who truly deserves it – YOU!
Anonymous 7:35 said… Coming from a guy, 5:22, fair enough. Two way streets are important and assessing that is important too before jumping in. You are talking like, say, the New York Times. Then along comes 7:25 PM, a loud blaring Fox News.
The bad news is that some single desi women will be insane enough to listen to 7:25, saying “yes! I am so fed up I will do just that” and then shoot themselves in the foot. Vijay Uncle, can you repost that Psychology Today article link from the last set of comments for our sad, angry, disgruntled 7:25 to read?
Anonymous 7:44said… Characteristics of Emotional Pursuers and Emotional Distancers … EMOTIONAL PURSUERS EMOTIONAL DISTANCERS … Sexual distancer Sexual Pursuer.
j.brandler.home.att.net/emotional.htm
Anonymous 8:09 said… Anon 7:25, I agree with a lot of what you are saying except the belittling part. I have heard that they like compliments. They like aloofness but not abuse. So, basically just like a I do not care attitude, but with a little bit of interest. I think only a man with very low self esteem will put up with put downs. But, everything else you are saying is what I have read in many books.
Anonymous 8:26 said… Anon 808 — LOL “I have heard they like”… I you I take it you have had to hear since you haven’t actually experienced? Try dating a real man and you will realize Anon 725 is horse ish.
And you have read it in many books? No surprise there — trash and controversy sells. If Vijay Uncle wrote a book about the truth and infrared dating’s power, it would sell 1,000 copies. Trashy shocking “belittle your man to keep him happy” sells 100,000 copies. I agree with Anon 735 – Anon 725 is like Fox News, spewing garbage but loudly USING CAPS to try to be dramatic. In the end, if you like a guy, hint and nudge him a bit, and like Oh Lordy Lord says, once you see his is giving you his all, give the same back and do not play games.
Cha Cha said… To 7:25pm: I am assuming that you are still single because your advice is absolutely ludicrous. Belittling? Manipulation? My God!
Anonymous said… Apparently only some of you guys recognize sarcasm. – Anon 7:25 (a man)
Anonymous 7:17 said… Haha, 725PM, I did think you were kidding around, and you confirmed that. Thank you for shining a light on how silly these games women play are. Women have played games with me, and I think it is idiotic. In fact, it is so blatantly obvious, when you’ve dated enough, which women are reading these stupid dating books and which women are genuinely interested and not game-players. I am always honest and up-front with someone who seems genuine, but I never can be that way with a game-player.
Anonymous 8:34 said… Going back to the original post by anonymous 3:14 – as girls, how do we 1) encourage guys who have a fear of rejection and 2)avoid the inexplicable loss of interest caused by not being a challenge?
Anonymous 9:02 said… To 8:34PM: Inexplicable loss of interest is not due to not being a challenge. Inexplicable loss of interest is due to a multitude of factors, which the other party will not let you know about because they do not want to hurt your feelings. It could be your facial ticks, your poor vocabulary, your family background, your behavior with the waitor, or other idiosyncrasies.
And that goes for guys and girls.
Anonymous 11:01 said… I agree with 9:02pm — the loss of interest usually has a very valid great reason but seems inexplicable to the other person. For example. I exchanged emails with someone and a few things she said in her latest emails were huge red flags, deal breakers for me. So I could either reply explaining the red flags, or not reply at all. Why win the world would I reply explaining the red flags? I am sure the receiver would love to hear why, but as the sender, why would I do this? Easier to just not reply, or generally say I dont think things will work or I am not feeling the vibe. Yes, it will seem inexplicable to her, but there is no incentive or good reason for me to explain in detail so that it is instead “an explicable loss of interest.” That is just the way it is and will always be.
Vijay Mehta M.D. said… Anonymous 11:01 I think you are right on. The easiest option is to call it inexplicable. And most people would opt for it. However, what I have learned is that it is important for you to keep a track of your in explicable and challenge them. In my infra red process after few encounters we actually visit the so called inexplicable. You can learn so much about your-self when you analyze, why you did what you did? It is more than likely that most of you have turned down or not grabbed the opportunity with at least 2 or 3 prospects, who if you look back may seem like good choice. I am struck by the so called deal breakers among my seriously looking group.
Your technique is fine when you are window shopping. Once you get in serious mode you may want to consider sharing that unpleasant facts with the prospect and let him/her challenge you. Of course, I do not expect you to change your mind based on it. But by having an open discussion you may find out about how you were not as perfect as you thought. This is a process of self realization that will make you a smart bidder and next time around you may seize the moment. With me being in the middle sharing the unpleasant facts does become easier.
Anonymous 1:59 said…
I completely agree with this statement – “the more successful a woman is, the less she cares about whether the man is making more than her”
It is definitely those that are less successful that are looking for a guy who makes money, etc to compensate for what they do not have. I know plenty of friends who are female that are married to guys equally/less successful than them – and the guys joke about how they want to be the ones who stay at home, because they are confident / like the fact that their wives are accomplished. The woman in these relationships care more about whether their husbands actually are passionate about what they do, etc.
It’s the girls who are not as successful that give the impression that all women want is a guy who is more successful than them. BE WHAT YOU WANT IN OTHERS – if you want a guy who makes money, is succesful – try to be that yourself!
Guys will so quickly pick up on someone who is just looking at successful they are – and I can imagine that is a total turnoff for a guy who is actually successful.
Smilemoon said… hey everyone, i’m heading out for non-stop traveling starting today, but i just wanted to clarify my “99% statement” in regards to women seeking men who are more successful than them. first off, as i try to avoid doing but still do from time to time, the 99% was an exaggeration & i should have said that seems to be the trend. & if everyone doesn’t agree with that, well, then i am shocked & desi culture as i know it has completely flipped on me!
just like the female doctor seeking a surgeon, i think that the “more successful” phenomenon is not necessarily in regards to income, but often professional stature as well.
& second, i’d like to clarify for my personal sake. i have liked/dated guys from K-12 teachers to lawyers/doctors and my “future lifestyle” is the least of all things I am concerned about, so i am far from seeking someone who will support me. however, like a few people mentioned above, i, too, am someone who would want the person i’m with to be passionate about what he does & ambitious in his life’s pursuits (again, that doesn’t necessarily mean $$$ – that could be a hobby, community service, etc.).
7:25, lol & my god, you caused quite a stir!
& lastly, 7:17, as someone who has admittedly read those “stupid dating books,” I do not think they are all idiotic. I have never read one that says to treat guys callously, be a B, or anything to that effect… as with books on any topics, they provide another perspective and offer awareness on certain things. For example, a book like “He’s Just Not that Into you” is wonderful, b/c it blatantly spells out all the many scenarios in which women fool themselves into believing something is there when there isn’t. I personally think that should be a mandatory read for all girls when they turn 14!
Regardless, anyone who has a solid core foundation (belief system + values) would not change their entire personal/demeanor based on these or any books. I have read a few of them (some are wildy entertaining like Steve Harvey’s!) & I am the furthest thing from a game player, manipulator, etc. I might not be able to communicate what I am thinking in a particular moment, but I figure out a way to say how I feel to make sure that I do not lead anyone on.
Ok everyone, have a great weekend & write soon ~ SM 🙂
Anonymous 9:19 said… BE WHAT YOU WANT IN OTHERS
Very true. I totally agree Anon 1:59. In line with that, there is a quote: “You get who you are, not what you want.” Like attracts like. Haven’t we all seen couples like this? 2 Doctors, 2 travelers, 2 depressed people, 2 money hungry people, 2 do gooders. You must become that which you seek.
Anonymous 10:59 said… I am going to have to agree with SM that the dating books are actually quite helpful and do not encourage negative behavior. Not everyone is well versed in the mating dance and sometimes to prevent a lot of mayhem, the books can be helpful. I also agree with SM that some education should start in teens. I wish I knew back then what I know now. They taught us bizarre chemical equations and other useless math problems, but very little education on relationships. There really should be education upon relationships in High School. I am using weird algebra equations in my life, what many need is practical relationships/dating/mating advice.
Anonymous 8:11 said… To Anon 9:19am – do you mind explaining your perspective more? I am curious about this “you get who you are.”
Anonymous 7:18 said… Smilemoon, By the way, surgeons generally make more than regular doctors, so in that specific example, women docs wanting to be with surgeons is about money and stature both.
Anonymous 10:53 said… Teach us about relationships in high school? Not sure if I agree with that one.
I believe it is the parents duty to teach basic life skills, whether it be basic socializing or how to build and maintain relationships. Although our desi parents were great caregivers, they weren’t the kind of parents we could openly speak about relationships and sex (can you imagine talking to your parents about those topics??)!!!
You see, theories on Biology and Chemistry are generally accepted. However the way we each handle relationships differs greatly and not all parents would agree on how the school boards are teaching students how to handle and conduct yourself in a relationship.
Vijay Mehta M.D. said… Relationships cannot and should not be taught in high school. It needs to be learned on your own. You learn it so much better if those who are pivotal people in your life guide you (without controlling it). Here in lies what Desi family can do different. As phobic as we are of hormone driven teens being allowed to learn about relationship on their own that is exactly what needs to be done. If the parents do not spook out and show support and understanding this will be like a strong vaccine that would prevent future catastrophe. However if anal parents choose to prevent even attenuated virus coming in contact with their child – later on they pay a heavy price for it. This is already evident from our next generation that has made it to late twenties and onward.
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